Papers Relating to the Foreign Relations of the United States, With the Address of the President to Congress December 7, 1915

File No. 812.00/24281.

Conference on Mexican Affairs, September 18, 1915.

September 18, 1915

[Stenographic report.]

Secretary Lansing. Gentlemen, we have received replies, as you know, from the different chieftains in Mexico. They develop the fact that there are really two factions: one that we may term the Carrancista faction and the other the Conventionist faction, more commonly known as the Villista faction, in which I would include the Zapatistas because they all practically hold the same views in regard to government in Mexico. All the Conventionists have practically accepted the invitation which we sent them. Mr. Carranza’s reply has been handed you today, in the original Spanish. Now, Mr. Carranza’s answer is a refusal to enter into a Mexican conference, but it indicates a willingness to meet with this Conference in regard to international affairs. I assume that that can only mean the question of recognition at the present time; that is purely an international question based on facts of which we are more or less the judges. I thought we might as well consider Mr. Carranza’s answer to us to show that he does not reject the principle of a conference of some sort but does not wish to have a conference with the other Mexican factions. That presents a situation contemplated by the committee who drafted the first and second steps at the last conference, and Mr. Naón has very kindly taken up the matter from the point of view of the committee and I think he has a resolution prepared to meet the present situation.

Ambassador Naón. In case they do not accept our invitation we have decided to follow the policy of recognizing any provisional revolutionary government possible to guarantee the security of life and property both of nationals and foreigners. Now, a great number of answers do not agree to the idea of a conference for the constitution of a government—for the agreement of all the factions. Then the first possibility that we have supposed is put aside and made impossible because of a lack of agreement on the part of a great number of those persons to whom the invitation was addressed. Then it seems to me that, logically, we have reached the second position we have supposed, that is to say, the recognition of any provisional government possessing the moral strength to guarantee the life and property of both nationals and foreigners. When we sent the telegram we had to know exactly what we would do after the answers had come, and with that in view I have prepared a resolution meeting that situation.

Minister Calderón. Our appeal to the governors of the States was, in my mind, with the object of having the people of Mexico take part in this affair, because I supposed the Governors more or less represented the views of all the people they represent. It appears that the people of Mexico have not taken any notice, and the action seems to have been taken by the men in arms. Therefore the two different principles: First, to consider the answers of one faction sufficient and tell them to arrange a new provisional government else we will discredit them; second, to consider the answer of the other chiefs or factions who, without accepting our appeal, come with the suggestion of a conference in regard to international questions. I am inclined to accept [the latter]; to tell him [Carranza] we are willing, and, not interfering with the international [internal?] affairs of Mexico, are willing for them also to send their representatives to this Conference. But we will reserve to ourselves the right to determine which of the two factions has really met the condition we have put in our resolution—possession of enough power to maintain the freedom and security of the citizens, foreign and national. Each will contend it has the power. It is for us to discover which has really the greater strength and hope of imposing itself on the whole country. We could not leave the country without government; the government must be established, and these meetings have been called with the object of telling which government we could recognize. I am perfectly agreeable to Carranza’s idea, because our object is simply to discuss international questions. We could say: “As you represent but one faction, you could not discuss with yourself; come and tell us what your ideas are in relation to the international conditions, and we reserve to ourselves the full right to recognize whatever faction we consider proper and who will give these guaranties for the life and property of foreigners and nationals.”

Secretary Lansing. Mr. Minister, I should say that practically all the chieftains and governors within the territory which has been occupied by Zapata or Villa, or under their influence, have sent us a separate answer of acceptance. All the generals and governors in the territory which has been occupied by the Carrancistas have referred us to Carranza for an answer; so that Mr. Carranza’s answer represents the united opinion of the chieftains, civil as well as military, within the districts which he occupies. There is probably only one case of a governor who may be said to be independent, and that is the Governor of Oaxaca, who has accepted the invitation. He is the only one. I do not think that on account of one man we can change the policy.

Ambassador Da Gama. I think you could. It would be for the principle. For when we set aside one of the factions, as we did when we did not send an invitation to the exiled people, we intervened in defining what was the representation of Mexico.

Secretary Lansing. I doubt very much whether we should have sent a communication to the Governor of Oaxaca, because he did not belong to the revolution. One of our policies was that the revolution was triumphant. The government must arise from the revolution.

Ambassador Da Gama. What is a triumphant revolution that does not impose itself?

Secretary Lansing. It imposes itself, unfortunately, in sections and not as a unit.

Ambassador Da Gama. So that it does not impose itself.

Secretary Lansing. Yes, I think it does everywhere. It is a question of fact as to whether they are in power. If they are in power then we can only consider them for recognition.

Ambassador Da Gama. Discussing the thing logically, by recognizing the triumph of the revolution we still intervene.

Secretary Lansing. I cannot agree with you there, for the reason that whenever there is a civil war in a country you must select from either one part or the other which one is the agent of the sovereignty. We have to determine that. To that extent we intervene in the domestic affairs of the country. We are bound to do that; otherwise we could not recognize any government. The question is, Which is the dominant power? We do not know; we have not the facts before us; let each side present its facts to us; let them present to us separately the facts on which they base their claim to represent the sovereignty of Mexico.

Ambassador Da Gama. Why not meet themselves?

Secretary Lansing. They decline to meet.

Ambassador Naón. At present the question is whether or not we will recognize a de facto government. We have absolute freedom to select any means to establish in our own judgment who is the government to be recognized. Then from my standpoint, I say: It seems to me that the information that the representative of Carranza will bring to me will enable me to form a judgment in some particular; the information that the representative of Villa will bring—any information we can get, from any source—will allow me to say to my Government, “In my opinion, you should recognize So-and-so.” That does not mean that my Government will accept my recommendation. They will be the final judges of the capacity of the government to fulfill the guaranties of life of nationals and foreigners; they will be the judges also of the proper moment to recognize the government. But we have to give advice and information to our Governments.

Ambassador Da Gama. By that time, by receiving the representatives of the factions in arms that will come to plead their rights to be recognized, we shall have been intervening in Mexico. We are here as counselors or as advisors to the Government of the United States, because that was the invitation, not to decide or take any action; and it was understood there would be no joint action. But if we discuss here who would be recognized in Mexico, that would be an action.

Minister Calderón. The point is very clear. The factions have not come together. Consequently we have been left in the position to select between the two factions that appear to remain and have control of Mexico—the Villa and Carranza factions. What right have we now to decide which of the two is the stronger? I do not think we are in a position to do that. We want to know what obligations, what promises toward foreign nations they will make in order to secure a guaranty of the rights and lives of nationals and foreigners.

Ambassador Da Gama. What authority have we to decide?

Secretary Lansing. Gentlemen, I think we are working at cross purposes. My idea is that we should have a separate conference with the two factions, as Mr. Naón proposes, in order that we may listen to their respective statements as to the facts which show stability of government and the purposes of the factions, in case they should obtain recognition. It is not for us, after we have heard that, to determine who should be recognized. We have no power to determine who should be recognized. We would meet merely to receive the facts, to discuss them among ourselves for the benefit that we get from an exchange of ideas; and each one would then report independently to his Government. One might report for Villa, another might report for Carranza. It is not joint or positive action by our Governments.

Ambassador Da Gama. We are here consulting, for the opinion of the world, by discussing or by hearing or by compelling, as judges, as to whom should be recognized in Mexico. But as a body we should not do that.

Secretary Lansing. We have no power as a body.

Ambassador Naón. We are consulting. When I speak, I speak for myself. I want to have as much information as possible in order to advise my Government what it should decide. I suppose my opinion should be as authoritative as possible in order that it may be accepted.

Ambassador Da Gama. I am making objection to the proposition in this, that we appear here as a body, and as a body we cannot act in relation to the recognition of a government in Mexico.

Secretary Lansing. We cannot, as a body; that is perfectly true.

Ambassador Suárez. I would like to say that I think I will need to consult my Government about the main part of the proposition, for we know we have nothing to expect from an agreement between these two factions. The appeal having failed, we have nothing to do but recognize one of these factions or not recognize anyone. The Carranza faction, which is doubtless the strongest one, in my opinion, does not give sufficient guaranties—the guaranties we asked for in our first resolution. That being so, I do not see what we can do, and my opinion is that the matter is not to be decided yet, not so quickly. About the first part of this resolution, I do not think it would be necessary to repeat the proposition adopted by us at the last session, and therefore I would consider sufficient the first paragraph of the proposition of the Argentine Ambassador, which is this one:

In view of the answers to the telegraphic appeal, the conferees believe that the time has arrived to carry out the policy which they agreed to recommend to their Governments in the event, etc.

Ambassador Naón. It seems to me the question is, whether we should invite these chiefs or not.

Ambassador Suárez. Therefore I say this first part is not a necessity. About the second part of the resolution, I frankly have to say I would not accept it, personally. I do not think we are engaged to invite anybody to come here. I am giving my first impressions as I feel them: that I do not feel able to give a definite opinion about the proposition now.

Secretary Lansing. I will say this, gentlemen. The situation in Mexico is becoming intolerable. We are agreed that it is time to recognize a government in Mexico. If this Conference cannot ask them to present their cases, the United States will have to do it alone. We don’t want to; we want your advice and the benefit of your opinions. As soon as the government is recognized, it is possible that the United States may place an embargo on arms and ammunition to all factions except the one recognized.

Ambassador Da Gama. You have a perfect right to do that because you are the interested party. Your interests are stronger than ours, which are purely [omission]. You may do that and be charged with the responsibility of any fault or any good step that you may take. That is your affair. But for us to take that responsibility, our people, our countries would not agree to it.

Secretary Lansing. You are not required to do it.

Ambassador Da Gama. You could have recognized Carbajal; you could have recognized Gutierrez, Carranza, or anybody. You did not do it; then you can recognize anybody you want to. But why draw us into that recognition?

Secretary Lansing. We did it for the reason, as I explained at our first conference, that Ave thought you understood the character of the people better than we did, and we did sincerely wish your advice; and, if possible, we sought to obtain identical, though independent, action.

Ambassador Naón. My opinion has been perfectly clear from the beginning. I understood that we came here to consult. It seems to me that we have [consulted] with the exception of the action we took in sending the telegram to the military and political chiefs. At that moment we took action—a liberty we had not the authority for. Afterwards, consulting, we arrived at an opinion that has been a common opinion. We have examined what possibilities or what different situations will be applied after the answer to that action came to us; and we decided that in the first place, that is, in case every one of the persons whom we addressed accepted the offer and the organization of a government, we would recognize that government without any other analysis. In the second place, if they did not accept the idea of a conference, we decided to advise our Governments to recognize any de facto government with such and such conditions. The only new thing I propose is the action of inviting these people to come to us in the same way we have invited them to come together, in order to find a solution of the difficulties. It seems to me it is absolutely the same: at that time we invited them; at this time we invite them. At that time we said to them, “We are doing this and this”; at this time we say, “As international officers we would like to hear what information you have in regard to the possibility of an international recognition of your government.”

Ambassador Suárez. In that case we invited them to unite, and in this case we invite them to come here and discuss with us.

Ambassador Naón. That is exactly what we want. We invite them to give us information in order to allow us to perform our duty as an international power. We must recognize a government and ask them to come and help us form our opinion. This is an action more or less of the same character that we took when we sent them the telegram. If the members of the Conference would not like to take that action without the authorization of their Governments, they can object; but they cannot object to establishing the fact that we decided so and so at our first conference.

Secretary Lansing. It seems to me, gentlemen, that when we sent that communication asking them to come into conference together, we interfered more with their internal affairs than when we ask their representatives to meet us and present their cases.

Minister De Pena. I agree with the opinion of Ambassador Naón, because we have already addressed an invitation in a special document, drafted by the Chilean Ambassador, to the chiefs of the factions. We are to analyze the real conditions in Mexico, and the best information we can receive is coming from the representatives of those chiefs.

Minister Calderón. We have made an agreement that if the factions in Mexico did not come together and name a provisional president, we would immediately proceed to recognize a faction. Now we invite them to tell us what are the elements they have for bringing about a government in Mexico. You [Ambassador Da Gama] object to that. But if we are going to recognize a government in Mexico we have a perfect right to know what kind of government to recognize, and that is why it is very proper to say, “Come and tell us.” If you object to calling this last body, how will we decide which of the factions to recognize?

Ambassador Da Gama. That is a different question.

Secretary Lansing. How would you obtain the facts as to what government should be recognized as having de facto power? What would be your suggestions?

[At this point there was general conversation and I was unable to get the Ambassador’s response.—Stenographer’s note.]

Secretary Lansing. Mr. Ambassador, would you object if I should invite those two factions, and after having heard them lay their statements before the Conference?

Ambassador Da Gama. But by conferring with them with a view to recognition you are—

[The rest was lost owing to general conversation.]

Secretary Lansing. If the facts did not warrant it we would not recognize any faction.

Ambassador Da Gama. You to present us the facts leading to recognition. And of course you may [omission] correctly. But that will not be an international conference.

Secretary Lansing. I feel that so much depends upon the personal touch you get in a conference with representatives of that kind.

Ambassador Da Gama. I prefer you to confer and see what you find and after that we will recognize as a matter of fact.

Secretary Lansing. I have one regret in taking that step, and that is that it strikes a blow at Panamericanism.

Ambassador Naón.

[Here, owing to general conversation, I was unable to take the Ambassador’s remarks, but they pertained to Panamericanism.—Stenographer’s note.]

Ambassador Naón. In another draft I have put it in this way. [Reads from draft.] I emphasize that we have been taking free and independent action.

Secretary Lansing. Instead of having seven independent conferences with these factions we should have one conference and all hear them together.

Minister Calderón. What would the Ambassador say to the position that we will agree to recognize any government the United States would recognize?

Secretary Lansing. My whole theory of Panamericanism is independent action. There is one thing I like about this attitude of the Brazilian Ambassador; it impresses me very strongly. And that is the independent action of each Government. That I believe in. That is the only substantial foundation of Panamericanism in a case of this sort. A friendly conference and, if possible, identical though independent action will give strength to the movement.

Ambassador Naón. We are consulting in order to inform our Governments that we have agreed to so and so.

Ambassador Suárez. I think this would be a formula to which I myself could agree:

In view of the answers to the telegraphic appeal sent to the political and military chiefs of the factions struggling in Mexico on the 11th of August last, the representatives who signed that appeal believe that the time has arrived to carry out the conclusions agreed upon in their last meeting in order to recommend to their respective Governments the recognition as soon as possible of a government in Mexico that shall have sprung from independent and exclusive action of the Mexicans and possessing the material and moral capacity to protect the lives and property of nationals and foreigners.

and then say the conference would be glad to receive individually and separately from the several factions in Mexico any statements they may desire to make for the solution of the matter.

Ambassador Da Gama. I would still prefer that the Secretary of State hear them. I would not accept even that because many people would come [omission] you would change the Mexican Conference into an international conference.

Ambassador Suárez. If they came voluntarily …

Ambassador Da Gama. They would come because we opened the door for them to come.

Ambassador Suárez. What objection do you see to a man coming from Mexico, sent by Carranza, Mr. Ambassador? These are the facts we have disclosed to you.

Ambassador Da Gama. I am going to tell you my position. If there is any conference with the revolutionists and representatives of sovereign nations, here in the United States or somewhere else, I * * *

[General conversation precluded getting the finish of the Ambassador’s remarks.]

Secretary Lansing.

[Something about the successful revolution, but there was too much general discussion.]

Ambassador Da Gama. Let them show you first, because they need your support; then recognize them if you deem proper, and then we follow.

Secretary Lansing. Your advice before recognition is what we want.

[General Spanish discussion.]

Ambassador Naón. Now, I want to be absolutely clear. I don’t want to inform my Government about anything more than what has been decided here. I can inform my Government that the resolution has been substantially this: [reads Señor Suárez’s resolution, given above.] And at the same time we ask our Governments for instructions as to the advisability of inviting these people to give us as much information as possible, in order that the Governments can act when they deem proper.

[General discussion, mostly in Spanish.]

Secretary Lansing. Of course the question of stability, which is the essential element a government must have to obtain recognition, is a matter of which we ought to hear from the different factions. We hear them independently, only we sit together; and then we can discuss the conditions and see if we can reach identical opinions. The essential thing is to get the evidence. It may perhaps open the door to substantial agreement between the factions. The main thing is that we hear both factions so that neither can complain that it has not had opportunity to lay its case before us.

Ambassador Naón. (Reads Señor Suárez’s resolution for the purpose of getting it into the record.)

Secretary Lansing. Then what are we going to do?

Ambassador Naón. We have to ask our Governments for an immediate answer whether we are authorized to invite the chiefs of the factions now strongest in Mexico in order to hear a statement that they may desire to make to our respective Governments in regard to the real situation as to the possibility of recognition. We will ask our Governments for an authorization of what they consider proper to invite these people to talk with us on—the question of the strength of the guaranties in order to establish whether any one of them can protect the lives and property of nationals and foreigners.

Secretary Lansing. The idea is to have a discussion in order that it may be determined what the facts are in regard to the situation, so that our Governments may act with full knowledge in dealing with the situation and the recognition of a de facto government.

Ambassador Da Gama. If I may be permitted a question, in case one or two of the Governments refuse the authorization to their representatives to tender that invitation, what would happen?

Ambassador Naón. I think the Governments that want to hear them can do so, and afterwards …

[General Spanish discussion.]

Ambassador Naón. We can do it in this way: ask an authorization from our Governments to look for any information we can get from the factions or from any other source, personally or in conjunction with the other members of the Conference, and report about the government that ought to be recognized.

Secretary Lansing. Of course there is another solution, which I dislike very much. It is this: I could offer the invitation and then if they do accept the invitation and send delegates, those members of the Conference who wish to attend could do so.

Ambassador Da Gama. It would be the same bad situation. Then I might tell my Government that I did not find it in my power to confer with the representatives of Carranza, Villa and Zapata, and that the Government of the United States and those of Chile, Argentina, Bolivia, Uruguay and Guatemala think they should; and that I, being in a situation of embarrassment, ask leave of absence.

[General discussion, mostly in Spanish.]

Secretary Lansing. I think I should be disposed, in case that was done, to communicate with the different factions myself.

[Spanish discussion.]

Secretary Lansing. I should like sufficient time to communicate and hear the representatives from the factions. I should think it would take about three weeks.

Conference adjourned.