116. Memorandum of Conversation1

SUBJECT

  • The Secretary’s Breakfast Meeting with Domenici and His Colleagues

PARTICIPANTS

  • Senators
  • Pete Domenici (R-N.M.)—Committees: Aeronautical and Space Sciences; Budget; Public Works.
  • Robert B. Morgan (D-N.C.)—Committees: Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs; Public Works; Select Committee on Intelligence Activities.
  • Richard Stone (D-Fla.)—Committees: Agriculture; Interior and Insular Affairs; Veterans’ Affairs.
  • J. Bennett Johnston (D-La.)—Committees: Appropriation; Interior and Insular Affairs; Small Business.
  • Bill Brock (R-Tenn.)—Committees: Finance; Government Operations; Small Business.
  • Alan Cranston (D-Calif.)—Committees: Banking; Housing and Urban Affairs; Labor and Public Affairs; Veterans’ Affairs.
  • Department of State

    • The Secretary
    • Assistant Secretary William D. Rogers
    • Assistant Secretary Robert J. McCloskey
    • Michael M. Mahoney (Notetaker)
[Page 311]

[Omitted here is discussion of unrelated matters.]

Senator Johnston: What are your views on the Panama Canal?

The Secretary: Let me explain. This is not just a matter between us and Torrijos —as often presented. It concerns all of Latin America. A refusal to discuss the issue could undermine our relations with the other Latin American nations. I know of no one who knows Latin America who does not foresee some sort of guerilla action. Riots, upheaval. Every country would be against us—well, maybe not Paraguay or Bolivia. This is the only issue that could turn them all against us. There is nothing we would be able to do. Last year Torrijos made an effort to have six Latin American Presidents enter the Zone with him. We headed it off at the last minute. All our friends have told us. There is no country where this wouldn’t happen. Mexico? Senator Goldwater went to Mexico. The President told him they’d send the army to Panama. Barry changed his mind.2

Senator Brock: So have I.

The Secretary: We will give up some things—like water rights, but we will retain defense rights. We seek some formula to get us through the useful life of the Canal—40 years. In fifteen years, of course, all hell could break loose but then it would be us and the Panamanians and it would be a new treaty not the old treaty. Other countries like Britain and Suez had the same thing. And I note that Panama is the same distance from here as Suez from England. Let’s wait for the treaty. We’ll keep the defense operations and give up the irritating features. It will be a year and then we’ll have a consent agreement for a treaty—then we’ll have to paragraph it and work it out and that’s another long stretch.

Senator Domenici: Let me make a few remarks. Senator Cranston and I may have to leave. Thank you for meeting with us. A number of us not on the Foreign Relations or Armed Services committees feel—and we’ve told you—we want to share ideas and exchange views. We only see you occasionally. I invited these gentlemen as a chance to get your views. Would you conclude that if we don’t endeavor to keep the negotiating spirit alive that the effort to get closer to Latin America will be in vain.

The Secretary: That is my judgment and that of all the other leaders that I’ve met.

Senator Morgan: I was approached by the Ashford Morning Seminar. They were adamant. I told them to send a committee down. Some [Page 312] Legionnaires went. If some civic leaders were sent there it would be good.

The Secretary: An excellent idea. Maybe we could do it when the treaty is further advanced.

Senator Brock: If we could get some Legionnaires. The commander in Tennessee and one or two other states. Three commanders, a small trip, not big. I’m goldarned sure it would help. I’m okay if I keep the VFW off my back. As a politician I know that no issue is more important to the Latin Americans than the Panama Canal. You talk to an Argentinian—this is essential to them.

The Secretary: This is the test of US commitment.

Senator Morgan: The average American just doesn’t know how much we have there.

The Secretary: And what is our alternative? To keep the 82nd Airborne there? And 15,000 Panamanians work in the Zone.

Senator Stone: Have you considered presenting us with two segments of the treaty? First the financial; second the social issues; third the general economic issues. Leaving sovereignty, the ultimate transfer to last. Instead of putting it all in one package. If you gave us just the rent first we could get a rhythm of approval established; we could avoid Reagan.

The Secretary: Would the Senate do that.

Senator Brock: It would sail through.

Senator Stone: It gets us into a rhythm.

The Secretary: I don’t know if we’ve finished anything yet.

Senator Cranston: Would Allen and Helms filibuster?

Senator Stone: I talked to Allen. It’s not the rent or the work opportunity provisions. It’s these other things. Give us one or two revisions and we’d pass through. Why not get it out of the campaign. Bipartisan ratification.

The Secretary: It never occurred to me that it could be done.

Senator Stone: I told Bunker. And the other man, the former Ambassador to the OAS what’s his name?

Assistant Secretary Rogers: Linowitz

The Secretary: We’ll look into it. I just don’t know what the President’s ideas would be—about a debate.

Senator Stone: There’d be no debate.

[Omitted here is discussion of unrelated matters.]

  1. Source: National Archives, RG 59, Ambassador Bunker’s Correspondence, Lot 78D300, Box 4, Key Documents. Secret; Nodis. Drafted by Mahoney on April 2.
  2. See Document 106.