[Enclosure]
Memorandum by the American Ambassador (Clark) of a Conversation
With the Mexican Minister for Foreign Affairs (Estrada), December 9,
1930
I requested yesterday another interview with Mr. Estrada. The
appointment was made for ten o’clock this morning. I went to the
Foreign Office at the appointed hour and met Mr. Estrada, together
with Subsecretary Schiaffino, who was present throughout the entire
interview. Mr. Covarrubias acted as interpreter.
I told Mr. Estrada I had come to see if he had reached any
conclusions on my suggestion as to the meeting of the Claims
Commissions. He said that he thought the best thing to do with the
two Commissions was to abolish them and make an en bloc settlement.
I told him I understood that he desired to discuss that upon his
return from the United States, to which he acquiesced.
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He then stated that he had taken up the Commission meetings with
their legal officers, and launched into another long dissertation
covering points in the history of these Commissions. He said that
whenever there had been a renewal of the Conventions, the American
Government had taken the position that time was most essential to
the renewal; that not even a minute was to be lost, and that so
eager had we been for renewals that we had wished the Commissions to
go on immediately without any break whatever at the time of renewal.
He illustrated his meaning by likening the situation to a smoker
lighting one cigarette from another. He then stated that at the time
of the last renewal, the Mexican Government had proposed the
discussion of certain matters; that we had said we were willing to
discuss after the renewal; that they had renewed but that the
matters had never been discussed.
After talking about the general situation at considerable length, he
stated that he was in agreement that there should be a meeting of
the Special Claims Commission, more or less preliminary, which
should take place about next February, and that we could then
discuss the time and place of the next meeting of the General
Commission. He also stated that at this Special Claims Commission
meeting, he proposed that no cases involving the same principles as
the Santa Isabel cases, and no cases involving the acts of
Victoriano Huerta, should be discussed.
I refrained from entering into any discussion about any collateral
matters, but when he had finished, I stated my understanding of his
proposition to be this: there shall be no meeting of the Commissions
until February, when the Special Claims Commission shall meet, but
under arrangement that there will not be discussed at that session
any cases involving the principles of the Santa Isabel cases or the
acts of Victoriano Huerta.
Mr. Estrada stated that he was willing that the General Commission
should continue its sessions until that time, though Mr. McGregor
had indicated that he did not wish to go to Washington on account of
moving his children back and forth, and he assumed that while they
would want the Commission to meet in Mexico, we would want it to
meet in Washington.
He stated that the discussions as to whether the Commission should
meet need not wait until February but could be carried on
immediately, as Mr. Schiaffino had full powers.
I then stated that there were certain preliminary questions which
needed to be taken up, involving among them the question of evidence
and the question of filing briefs; that these would have to be
determined before the Commission could make any considerable
progress. Mr. Estrada asked whether this had to be done by the
Commission or whether it could be done otherwise. I said I thought
they would have
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to be
settled by the Commission, though probably the Agents could settle
them if the Agents could reach an agreement. I then asked Mr.
Schiaffino when we could begin our discussions, and suggested
tomorrow. Mr. Schiaffino asked whether forenoon or afternoon, and I
told him it made no difference to me. He then stated that he was one
of the witnesses to the marriage of Mr. Estrada and would be busy in
the morning, and intimated that the whole day would be taken up. I
then suggested that we meet the following morning, the eleventh. He
assented to this, but at this point, Mr. Estrada suggested that we
make it Friday morning, to which I assented and the hour was fixed
at eleven AM.
Mr. Estrada referred to the paragraph of my speech in which I spoke
of the adjusting of international difficulties if both parties
remained reasonable, etc. He said he would remember that. I told him
I would always remember it, too.
He then again brought up the question of the United States being a
large country and Mexico being a small country. I told him I would
repeat to him what I had once before said to him: that we could get
along a great deal better if he would forget that the United States
was a big country and Mexico a small country; that as far as I was
concerned, the fact that we had one hundred and twenty millions and
that they had thirteen millions never crossed my mind when I was
discussing matters with him; that I took for my guide the famous
dictum of Mr. Chief Justice Marshall, delivered a hundred years ago,
that “Russia and Genève are equal”.
Mr. Estrada then stated that while it was easy for Americans,
Frenchmen, Mexicans, and Paraguayans to associate with one another
personally on good terms and as equals, it was not possible for
governments so to conduct themselves; that the mass of American
people were different from individual Americans, and that the
dealings between two governments had to be conducted on a different
basis than did differences between individuals. He intimated very
clearly, I thought, that his idea was to deal at arms’ length.
I told him that when two American business men had a difficult
business negotiation, they never took their lawyers with them, but
left them on the outside, because if they took the lawyers with
them, the two lawyers would get into a fight and they never would
make their agreement. I said that I was of the impression that if
Mr. Estrada and Mr. Clark, or Mr. Schiaffino and Mr. Clark could get
into a room and discuss matters and leave the Minister, the
Subsecretary, and the Ambassador on the outside, it might be
possible to accomplish much.
The interview left me with one distinct impression,—namely, that Mr.
Estrada does not wish to accelerate this Claims Commission question.
I am not sure whether he intends to try to avoid any further
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decisions by the
Commission, pending discussions of an en bloc settlement, or whether
he is intending to try to delay any further decisions or hearings by
either Commission, pending the time when, an en bloc settlement
failing, it becomes necessary to ask for a renewal, or whether he
has both situations in mind.
He told me that at our interviews Mr. Schiaffino would have with him
Mr. González Roa as his advisor, and that of course I might bring
anybody that I desired to have.
Mexico, December 9, 1930.
