Foreign Relations of the United States, 1977–1980, Volume XXII, Southeast Asia and the Pacific

269. Memorandum of Conversation¹

Washington, January 31, 1980, 1:30–2:30 p.m.

SUBJECT

• Summary of the President’s Meeting with Prime Minister Fraser of Australia

PARTICIPANTS

• President Jimmy Carter
• Secretary of State, Cyrus Vance
• Deputy Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, David Aaron
• Deputy Secretary of Defense, W. Graham Claytor
• Assistant Secretary of State, Richard Holbrooke
• U.S. Ambassador to Australia, Philip Alston
• Deputy Assistant Secretary of State, Evelyn Colbert
• Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense, Nicholas Platt
• National Security Council Staff Member for East Asia, Donald Gregg, Notetaker
• Prime Minister Fraser of Australia
• Minister of Health & Minister Assisting the Prime Minister, Michael McKellar
• Ambassador to the United States, Sir Nicholas Parkinson
• Secretary, Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, Sir Geoffrey Yeend
• Secretary of Foreign Affairs, Peter Henderson
• Chief of the Defense Force Staff, Admiral Sir Anthony Synnot
• Secretary of Foreign Affairs, William Pritchett
• Director, Office of National Assessment, Robert Furlonger
• Deputy Secretary (Trade and Resources), Lindsay Duthie
• Executive Officer to the Prime Minister, Michael Cook
• Notetaker for the Australians, Roger Holditch

The President opened the meeting by welcoming Prime Minister Fraser and his party. He said that their support was reassuring. He thanked them specifically for the leadership Australia has shown on Afghanistan and Iran.

Prime Minister Fraser replied that he knew how difficult the last three months had been in terms of the hostage situation. He added that the President’s response to the Afghan situation was seen in Australia as fully correct. He referred to the State of the Union speech² as “something to build on.” Fraser said that he knows that the United States cannot do all things by itself, and that close cooperation between allies is necessary. (C)

The President spoke of the United States and Australia as “partners” committed to the same cause. He said he felt that the Soviets had been surprised by the strength of the reaction to their attack. The President said he was pleased with the results of the Islamic Conference. He said he did not expect the Soviets to pull back from Afghanistan, but that they must be sent “a continuing message” that aggression carries with it a heavy price. The President said that the United Nations vote had also sent the Soviets an important message of condemnation.³ The President listed the various actions the United States has taken against the Soviets, and said that we must work in close cooperation with the Australians and other close allies to see that our efforts are complementary. The President cautioned that we do not want to alienate the Soviets completely. This would be dangerous. We should “leave the door open for them.” (S)

The President said that he was gratified by the growing response to the United States stand on the Olympics. He said that the nations of Africa will have an important influence on how that issue is resolved. He said that Muhammed Ali and Andrew Young are both going to travel to Africa to urge those nations not to take part in the Olympics.⁴ (C)

The President said that he hoped at a later time to move toward ratification of the SALT II treaty. He said he knew that it was hard for our allies to stand firm with the United States, and cited the European nations as having done a minimal amount. (C)

Turning to the Indian Ocean the President said that Australian support in that area is most welcome. He said that we plan to keep two carrier battle groups in the Indian Ocean, and that we are offering to help other nations in the area, such as the Yemens. He noted that some countries cannot accept US aid publicly. The President then asked Fraser what he had heard from Foreign Minister Peacock’s trip to India and Pakistan. (C)

Fraser said that Mrs. Gandhi had been difficult, and was not holding to the anti-Soviet stance she had manifested a few weeks ago. Mrs. Gandhi tends to try to equate the Chinese invasion of Vietnam with the Soviet attack on Afghanistan. Fraser said that we need to try to influence her as Carrington of the United Kingdom had done. Fraser said that Lee Kwan Yew may be able to help in that area. (S)

Regarding Pakistan, Fraser said that Peacock had not found things much better. The Pakistanis appear to be saying that US aid is not adequate, and that unless the US does better, they may strike a bargain with the Soviets. Fraser said he recognized that the Pakistani are in a very difficult position, that we should do all we can to help them, but that even this will not be easy to accomplish. (S)

The President said that the US hoped to come up with a significant aid package to Pakistan extending over several years. He said that the US was also trying to reassure the Indians that our aid to the Paks was in no way a threat to them. The President said that the American people are aroused and unified by what has happened in Afghanistan. The President commented that even Congress, however, which usually cuts aid packages, seems supportive of our efforts toward Pakistan. (C)

The President said that our deployment of theater nuclear weapons in Europe is an indication of our resolve. He added that the US plans to increase defense spending by 25% over the next five years. (S)

The President noted that the overall NATO response to American moves has been good, and that even some “pacifist nations” have been helpful. The President said that the Soviet move to exile Andrei Sakharov has had a strong impact in Europe. The President said that he hoped that Prime Minister Fraser’s visits to London, Bonn and Paris would help convince those nations to “stick with us.” The President said that we fully expect a Soviet peace offensive before too long, but that we do not intend to be deceived by it. Prime Minister Fraser replied that it was his experience that European nations often stand aside when non-European problems present themselves. Fraser said that the Soviets have demonstrated blatant hypocrisy in Afghanistan, and that we must show determination in responding to their aggression. The President said that he fully agreed with that analysis. (C)

The President then commented on the recent visit of Prime Minister Ohira to Australia. He noted that Japan-Australian relations have grown and become stronger over the past several years. (U)

Fraser agreed that the Ohira visit had been a success. He said he felt that Japan is doing better in responding to problems outside its immediate area. He noted that the energy problem will tend to draw Japan and Australia closer together, due to the Australian ability to supply Japan with much of its needed coal. (U)

Fraser turned to the Indian Ocean area, and noted that he has offered to increase Australia patrolling and reconnaissance in that area. He said that Australia is also willing to give “defense aid and defense training” to the ASEAN nations. Fraser added that Australia will also give “civil aid” to the new small nations in the Pacific, so as to keep them from offering tempting targets for Soviet subversion. (C)

The President said that he was pleased with all of these moves by the Australians. (U)

Turning to the recent visit to the PRC of Defense Secretary Brown,⁵ the President said that the US has made good progress in its relationship with Beijing. He said that they appear cautious in some areas, and that the US does not intend to sell weapons to them. We may sell such things as radar to them, the President said. He added that we will also be willing to sell some technology to the PRC that we will not sell to the Soviets. The President noted that the PRC’s relationship to Pakistan is a very important one. (C)

Fraser replied that the ASEAN nations, some of which are still strongly anti-communist, are still somewhat suspicious of the PRC. He said that these perceptions need to be changed, as do the views which India and Pakistan hold toward each other. Fraser also noted that there are still some sensitivities in South East Asia toward the rearming of Japan. (C)

Secretary Vance noted that at his meeting with Prime Minister Fraser it had been thought to be a good idea to move up the ANZUS meeting, and to hold it in the US. (U)

The President said he approved of that idea. (U)

Fraser said that the President’s State of the Union speech was a starting point, and something to build on. He said that the question “What next for the Soviets?” worries him deeply. Fraser said he believes that the attack on Afghanistan has brought about “a long-term change in the environment.” (C)

The President said that in dealing with the Soviets he had hoped for cooperation and mutual restraint, but that Afghanistan had changed US views. The President noted that he had had excellent intelligence on the developing situation in Afghanistan, and that the US had expressed its concerns to the Soviets directly several times. The Soviets ignored our warnings and went ahead with their attack. The President said he believed that the Soviets had underestimated the strength of world reaction which has arisen in response to their attack. (C)

Fraser again thanked the President for his State of the Union speech, which he said had “brought others along.” (U)

Turning to Iran, the President said that the US was committed to Iranian unity, and was not opposed to their revolution. He noted that by today’s standards, Bani-Sadr looks pretty good, having condemned the kidnapping of the Americans. The President said that under no circumstances would the US be a party to the return of the Shah to Iran. He also said that the US would not let a “trial of the US” take place. He said he was not opposed to the establishment of a tribunal, through which the Iranians can seek redress. The President noted that he was not opposed to Iranian efforts to gain access to some of the Shah’s wealth, and that he was not inclined, at the present time, to punish Iran for what it has done. The President noted that the Australians have been most helpful in dealing with the situation in Iran, and expressed his thanks for what they had done. The President then asked if the Australians are satisfied with the intelligence they exchange with the United States. (S)

Prime Minister Fraser replied that they were satisfied. Fraser added that they might like to exchange “technical analysis” from time to time. Fraser noted in this connection that Australia is trying to update its capabilities in the technical intelligence field. (S)

The President asked if Australia was able to assimilate the refugees it has accepted from Southeast Asia. (U)

Prime Minister Fraser replied that all appeared to be going well. He said that the refugees work hard and quickly adapt themselves to Australian society. He said that it would be hard for Australia to deal with a direct influx of boat people, but that they planned to take a total of 38,000 out of refugee centers by June. (C)

The President was surprised by this large number, and was told that in terms of its population, Australia was accepting a higher ratio of refugees than any other country in the world. (C)

Returning to the Indian Ocean area, Fraser again referred to his offer of increased patrolling and surveillance. He said he also plans to have Australian vessels make port calls in India. He noted that Australian air units can operate out of bases in Singapore and Malaysia and that in case of an emergency, Australia could take some air-defense burdens off of the US. Fraser noted that home porting of US Navy ships in Australia was under study, as was the question of having US ships use Australian ports in transit. Fraser noted that West Australia would particularly welcome a U.S. presence. He said that he hoped to have specific agreements ready in a few weeks. (S)

Prime Minister Fraser noted that in South East Asia, since the end of the Vietnam war, there had been real concern about American interest in that part of the world. Fraser said that the ASEAN nations had wanted the U.S. and South Vietnam to win. When they did not, their worries grew stronger. The Nixon Doctrine had deepened their concerns Fraser said. Fraser added that the President’s speech had helped a great deal to show that the U.S. maintains a strong interest in Asia. He said that the allied nations need to do all they can to demonstrate that they have an interest in the life and independence of the nations in Asia. Fraser noted that if these nations had more confidence in the allies, they would speak out more clearly. (C)

The President said that he agreed with Prime Minister Fraser’s analysis and that he saw this as a long-term problem. (U)

Fraser said that the Soviet attack on Afghanistan may open up a chance for the allies to improve their relations with Third World Nations that may now be suspicious of Soviet motives. (C)

The President replied that we have not shared responsibilities adequately in dealing with the Third World. More countries need to know what they should do. The President said that he hoped that Congress, which was often reluctant to pass aid programs for the Third World, may well be swayed by what has happened in Afghanistan. (C)

Prime Minister Fraser asked if there was a message the President would like to have him carry to the French and the Germans.⁶ (C)

The President replied that he had been generally disappointed by the European response to Afghanistan. He said that he had been particularly struck by how little the French have done. He noted that even if the French are not willing to join in direct anti-Soviet actions, he had hoped that they would have been more helpful on more symbolic issues such as the Olympic boycott. The President noted that Canada has been most supportive, and that the Italians have also done well. The President noted that Mrs. Thatcher had made good speeches, “but not much else.” (S)

The President noted that his planned increases in US defense spending have an unfortunate impact on inflation, which the President referred to as his biggest problem. He said that he hoped that Congress would support his defense expenditures. He noted that the current budget deficit amounted to ½ of 1% of the US GNP. The President spoke of the fact that the US still is importing too much foreign oil. He said that he would soon announce gasoline consumption quotas for all 50 states. He said that he hoped, as the US cuts the importation of foreign oil that Europe will do likewise. (C)

The President said that in dealing with the energy problem, the allies will have to work closely together, to share technical expertise. He spoke of coal liquefaction and shale reduction as problems to which several approaches must be taken. (C)

Prime Minister Fraser spoke of the growing complexity of military weapons production. He said that he hoped that the US could help Australia in matters of spare parts and resupply. (C)

The President gave his full support to this idea. (U)

The President asked if Australia could help Pakistan in any way, particularly military training. Prime Minister Fraser replied that Australia would give aid to Afghan refugees in Pakistan, and that Australia would be willing to consider giving military training if the Paks asked for it. (C)

The President said that Pakistan wants to diversify its military relationship as much as possible, and that even symbolic Australian aid would be helpful. (C)

Prime Minister Fraser said that he would be forward looking on this problem, but that they have to consider their relations with India. (U)

As the meeting drew to its conclusion, the President said that he did not think that Australia and the US had any problems between them. (U)

Prime Minister Fraser agreed. (U)

The President said that unless the free world nations are forceful and united, they might miss a crucial opportunity to keep the peace. He urged Prime Minister Fraser to ask the Europeans to do more. (C)

Prime Minister Fraser said that he agreed fully with what the President had said. Fraser said that he feels that Europe is the most secure area of the world, as any Soviet threat reunited the traditional alliance. Prime Minister Fraser referred to the 1930’s and the rise of Hitler, and said that the Soviets must not be allowed to move into Iran or the other Middle East oil-producing areas. (C)

The President said that timidity and reticence only encourage the Soviets to try to split the allies. He noted that some nations in the Persian Gulf area have not taken any measures to keep the Soviets from moving further into the area. (C)

The President said that the Palestinian problem has an impact on all nations of the Middle East, and their attitudes toward the US and the USSR. He said that after Egypt and Israel exchange ambassadors, they will then take a hard look at the tough remaining issues. At that time, the President said, the US will play a more forceful diplomatic role. (C)

After mutual thanks were exchanged the meeting ended. (U)

1. Source: Carter Library, National Security Affairs, Brzezinski Material, Subject File, Box 38, Memcons: President, 1/1980. Secret. The meeting took place in the Cabinet Room at the White House. Fraser was on a private visit to the United States en route to Europe.
2. For the text of the State of the Union speech, see Foreign Relations, 1977–1980, vol. I, Foundations of Foreign Policy, Document 138.
3. The UN General Assembly met in Emergency Special Session January 10–14 to address the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Resolution ES–6/2 was adopted on January 14. See Yearbook of the United Nations, 1980, pp. 299–302 and 307.
4. Documentation on Ali’s trip to Africa February 3–10 is scheduled for publication in Foreign Relations, 1977–1980, vol. XXV, Global Issues; United Nations Issues.
5. Brown visited Beijing January 6–10. See Foreign Relations, 1977–1980, vol. XIII, China, Documents 290–295.
6. Fraser returned to the United States on February 7 and again met with Carter, Vance, Brzezinski, and others to report on his meetings in Europe. The memorandum of conversation is scheduled for publication in Foreign Relations, 1977–1980, vol. XXVII, Western Europe.