Foreign Relations of the United States, 1977–1980, Volume XVI, Southern Africa

310. Memorandum of Conversation¹

New York, October 4, 1977, 3 p.m.

SUBJECT

• Talks between President Carter and President Samora Machel of Mozambique

PARTICIPANTS FOR THE US:

• The President
• The Secretary of State
• Dr. Brzezinski
• Ambassador Andrew Young
• Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, Richard Moose
• Ambassador Willard DePree
• Jerrold Schecter, NSC Staff
• Henry Richardson, NSC Staff (notetaker)

PARTICIPANTS FOR MOZAMBIQUE:

• President Machel
• Foreign Minister Joachim Chissano
• Special Assistant to the President, Sergio Viera
• Permanent Representative to the United Nations, Ambassador Jose Carlos Lobo

The President and Machel exchanged pleasantries during the press opportunity.

The President: I enjoyed your response at the luncheon;² it was much better than my speech.

Machel: But your speech was most important. You had to give your speech originally so that I could follow it.

(The Press departed)

The President: You were wise and correct when you said that we are in a position to understand racism, poverty and a host of similar problems. We have made progress in the United States. We cannot live on pride alone, though we are proud of our country. But we still have hunger, many of our people still need medical treatment, we still have needs in the field of education, and too many of our people are still out of work. Although we are the most powerful and wealthy country, we still have improvements to make.

And, it is important to us to improve relations between Mozambique and the United States. I am aware that past administrations may have been somewhat tardy in this respect.

Machel: There was a time when the United States related to the struggle against colonialism, such as ours, somewhat like a fire engine; you came along after the fire had already begun to burn.

The President: I believe that things are different now. Your leadership is well known. I value your opinions, and I hope that you will share them freely, either by direct communication with me, or through Ambassador DePree. We also need your advice in other areas. For example, I know of your interest in the Indian Ocean. We are trying to work with the Soviet Union to turn the area into a demilitarized zone. I would also be glad to share our problems and ideas on the Middle East and on SALT.

Machel: In only a very few words you touched many points. First, let me say that because you created the conditions for our talks today, this is already a good situation. We must speak sincerely to each other in order to feel our problems. When we talk with reserve, ongoing differences cannot be eliminated. Our tradition is to point out the positive, and indicate a way towards a solution of those problems which remain.

During the time of President Johnson, US-Mozambique relations were very bad. The United States at that time ignored the existence of the African Continent. That was a time when the United States turned almost its full attention to the Middle East. It was a time when the United States was very sensitive internationally about Vietnam. It was impossible to discuss anything without confronting those sensitivities. During the time of President Nixon, we were at war. There was a lack of diplomatic and political support for us from the United States. We had no need for material support, and wished only for your diplomatic and political support. There was no basis between us for closer relations. There was no sensitivity on the part of the US government to colonialism. And colonialism produces discrimination, massacres, violations of human rights, and conditions where lives have no value. We were fighting colonialism and we needed the support of all peoples; we needed humanitarian assistance; we needed your declaration that our struggle was just. We got none of this from the US government, only hostility. It was as if we had become a devil for the United States in our relations with that government. So, we became “dead” to US cooperation. We defeated Portuguese colonialism. You know of the involvement of the US government in support of the Portuguese. At the most decisive phase of our struggle, the United States spent $400 million for Portugal to support a colonial war. I cannot hide these frank and honest feelings; the United States played a role in lengthening that war.

After our victory, relations with the United States improved somewhat. Ambassador Easum was in Mozambique in October, 1974, during our transition period. He was expelled for unknown reasons. Upon our independence in 1975, we entered into purely diplomatic relations with the United States.³ The United States was sure that ours was a minority and temporary government, that we were not stable. Apparently the intelligence available to the United States was faulty on that point, because we have survived. Evidently the computers did not understand us and failed to give the right answer.

The President: The computers did not understand me either. They predicted that I would not win my election (laughter).

Machel: Our government is stable. Our program of nationalizations is well thought out and will be consolidated. We have the people’s support. The poor must defend their power. Perhaps I take too long in making these points, but we must remember the conditions which led us here.

We support the Zimbabwe struggle for independence, and we have willingly made Mozambique a base for that struggle. This does not seem to fit within the framework of US thinking. For the United States, everything violent must be communism and vice versa. There seems to be no understanding of a struggle for independence. Independence is a most precious thing. To be free is the most valuable thing we know. That is why we support armed violence when all other means fail to gain independence. In 1976, the United States made demagogic statements about Southern Africa. Kissinger came to bring peace, but no peace was seen. When the Lusaka declaration was issued,⁴ we said “wait.” Kissinger wanted to come to Maputo; we said no, because of his past activities. But we always received President Ford’s envoys; however, not Kissinger.

Kissinger did not find a solution in the Middle East. In Southern Africa, his policy was one of agreeing with South Africa for their assistance in making progress towards a settlement in Zimbabwe and Namibia in return for which the United States would leave them alone about apartheid in their own country. We cannot trade human lives in this respect. We are pleased by the present Anglo-American initiatives in Southern Africa. We have asked ourselves about the conditions under which they could succeed. We appreciate this policy, because it is based on respect for human rights and because it is a positive step for Southern Africa. We believe this policy to be genuine and not a cloak to protect apartheid. Mr. President, Southern Africa is not a problem only for Zimbabwe and Namibia, but it is a problem for all of us. We are the flesh surrounding the wound, and it is very painful. We see discrimination, hangings, and massacres every day in Zimbabwe, Namibia and South Africa. This is intolerable to us. We must ask, where lies the responsibility for these conditions? Who has been strengthening Rhodesia for twelve years?

When we speak of the West, we speak of West Germany, France, Great Britain, but chiefly the United States, because those countries find their blessing in the United States to pursue these policies. The United States is deeply involved in economic investment in Southern Africa, which is the highest form of economic support, and leads to killing and humiliation. Not only the political question, but also the economic question must be resolved in Southern Africa. Apartheid must be resolved in order to find solutions in all of Southern Africa.

With the consent of the United States, South Africa has acquired a nuclear capacity. Assistant Secretary Schaufele confirmed such US nuclear assistance, but asserted that no harm was done. The French have practically supplied nuclear weapons to South Africa, and now, too late, oppose them. The West Germans are still supplying South Africa. These bombs can only be aimed against the independent states of Africa, against all who demand equality. In all of this, the US was either involved or has great responsibility. That is a crime, and why we think of North America when we think of imperialism, because North America has always been involved in unjust causes.

The President: You have a very mistaken, distorted viewpoint of our country. We have the same motives as you do. We want nothing in Southern Africa except that Zimbabwe be independent, and be its own country. We want to end the bloodshed. Rhodesia is not attacking us—we could stay aloof from the fighting and the bloodshed and our interests would not suffer. We have nothing to gain by involving ourselves in this struggle for independence. We do it because we care for freedom and we care for independence. The same is true in Namibia where we have taken the lead in the Five Power Contact Group and in the United Nations under Ambassador Young. On South Africa, we do not control our citizens. We have a different society than you do. I understand that you trade with South Africa, which is your choice, and perhaps it is for the economic benefit of your people. It would be easy for the United States to avoid involvement in these very same situations for which you are concerned.

In the last 25 years, the world has changed. Colonialism was formerly an accepted way of doing things. In a sense, Spain and Portugal were our founding fathers; they colonized the land which is now the United States. We do have a concern in the United States about communism. We have elections every four years, which is different from Mozambique. But, just because our countries are different, does not mean that your country is bad. Perhaps, also, it was a mistake on your part to remain under Portuguese rule for so long a time. But this does not mean that you lack courage. To criticize others because of their differences is not productive at this time. I was not involved in the events of which you have spoken. I came from a farm, like you. The computers never thought that I would be President. My concern is for friendship between the United States and Mozambique, and my desire for this friendship is genuine. I am proud of my country; it is a country dedicated to justice and freedom.

Machel: This freedom and desire for friendship was the substance of my first point. I know that you were not involved in the events which I described, but it was necessary that I present a picture of those events.

The President: It was not an accurate picture.

Machel: President Nyerere expressed the feelings of all of us when he spoke of the steps you had taken in such short time in Zimbabwe and Namibia. These were very positive and solid steps. Because of those steps, we are today talking about how the transition period in Zimbabwe will go, precisely because the United States has taken the lead in the situation. The United States seems more committed to the struggle against colonialism than does the United Kingdom. These positive steps are useful not only relative to Zimbabwe and Namibia, but also to cooperation between the United States and Mozambique. A basis for this cooperation is being laid, and on this basis discussions can be held on commercial and aid cooperation. Two years ago, this was not possible. Your government has brought a new diplomatic and economic perspective. There is now a basis for cooperation to permit and make possible our economic development. Our need of industrial development and agricultural development forms a basis for proceeding. We must also consider the mutuality of benefits in this cooperation, and in this respect there is a range of possibilities.

On the Indian Ocean, our position has been made clear to the United States and the Soviet Union. We are not privy to knowing what happens during the meetings of the two great powers on the subject. For us, we want no military bases established; we want the spirit of detente to be shared; we want the Indian Ocean demilitarized and denuclearized to form a zone of peace. All who pass in peace will be welcome. This is our policy.

Secretary Vance has just been to China. Our position there is that Taiwan is an integral part of China.

As for relations between the United States and Mozambique, now, importantly, a basis for real economic and technical cooperation has been laid. Our experts can take it from here.

The President: Let me return to one point. In the past, our government’s policies have taken into account the division of world power between the United States and the Soviet Union. This has been a recognized pattern of alignment, for not only these two countries but other countries as well. Congress and others among the American people still view Mozambique as aligned with the Soviet Union against the United States. This I know is erroneous, but it is an attitude left over from our past differences. We here represent our governments as they actually are, not as they were. I think that it is possible to overcome the residue from the past, especially if you and I can agree. I hope that you will be patient as we move away from the past. I do not control all of my people. I cannot control Congress, and I need your assistance. A sign from Mozambique of friendship would be very helpful at this time. I pledge to work closely with you to eliminate our differences, and proceed on to fulfill our common purposes. I hope that we will be able to communicate often, either directly or through our embassies.

Machel: I agree.

The President: We have much to learn about Africa. We have given it our attention only recently, and we need your advice and counsel. I am only concerned that you might misjudge the character of the American people. Times have changed, and we share a common purpose. This purpose can be strengthened by our friendship.

Machel: We admire the American people, and we do not confuse them with the government of the United States. The American people have never been our enemies nor have been the Portuguese people. We were fighting Portuguese colonialism, not the Portuguese people. Many of my colleagues have visited the United States and have been warmly treated. The people of the United States have contributed humanitarian aid, medical assistance, education, and taught school, both blacks and whites, in the war zone. Yesterday, I received presents and checks from friends of Mozambique in America. We are good friends with the American people. Yesterday, also, I received documents and other signs of support. Once again, we see that the American people are contributing money for Zimbabwe and Namibia, and for those persons exiled from South Africa.

The President: I hope that you will accurately recognize that my government truly exemplifies and represents the aspirations and wishes of the American people as your government does for your people. We must put the past behind us in order to work towards the future together.

Machel: I feel the same way; however, I wish to make it clear that we are under no one’s (sic) influence. We gave our lives for independence. We are only dependent on our own people. It is true that our system emphasizes socialism, but that is because the people supported us. As you say, there is a commonality in our policy. But it must be made clear that we are no one’s agents.

(The President and President Machel exchanged final pleasantries.)

The discussion closed at 4:05 p.m.

1. Source: Carter Library, National Security Affairs, Brzezinski Material, Subject File, Box 35, Memcons: President: 10/1–5/77. Secret; Sensitive. The meeting took place in the President’s suite at the UN Plaza Hotel. Carter was in New York October 4–5 for the 32nd United Nations General Assembly meeting.
2. According to the President’s Daily Diary, Carter hosted a working luncheon for African Foreign Ministers and Heads of Delegations to the United Nations from 1:17 to 2:11 p.m. (Carter Library, Presidential Materials)
3. The United States recognized Mozambique on June 25, 1975. See Foreign Relations, 1969–1976, vol. XXVIII, Southern Africa, Documents 104 and 110.
4. April 27, 1976. See Foreign Relations, 1969–1976, vol. XXVIII, Southern Africa, footnote 3, Document 194.