Foreign Relations of the United States, 1969–1976, Volume E–11, Part 2, Documents on South America, 1973–1976

316. Memorandum of Conversation¹

Lima, February 18, 1976, 11:55 a.m.–12:45 p.m.

SUBJECT

• Secretary’s Meeting With Peru President Francisco Morales Bermudez

PARTICIPANTS

• PERU

  • President Francisco Morales Bermudez
  • Foreign Minister Miguel Angel de la Flor
  • Ambassador to U.S. Carlos Garcia Bedoya
  • Oscar Faure, Interpreter Military Aide

• UNITED STATES

  • The Secretary of State
  • Assistant Secretary William Rogers
  • Ambassador Robert Dean
  • Luigi Einaudi, Policy Planning Staff (Notetaker)
  • Anthony de Hervas, Interpreter

The Secretary’s party has driven directly to the Presidential Palace. After introductions to the President, those not scheduled to participate leave.

Kissinger: (Glancing at the many people remaining.) Now we can still take decisions by majority vote.

Morales Bermudez: I am very satisfied to have you here, even for such a brief time in Lima and in Peru.²

Kissinger: Mr. President, I want to thank you for your cordial reception. I have looked forward for a long time to visiting Peru. Your Foreign Minister’s invitation was the first I received to visit Latin America. I am very pleased to be here.

Morales Bermudez: (Makes an open gesture conveying readiness to hear anything further the Secretary would have to say.)

Kissinger: I had a good visit in Caracas. The President of Venezuela spoke with admiration of you and your government.

I come here with sympathy for the objectives of your revolution and with every intention of working to find ways to strengthen our cooperation.

Morales Bermudez: Well, I think that to develop a sincere base for cooperation, the first priority is mutual understanding. Since I had not met you before, I think your trip gives us a chance to improve our relations and should be very productive.

Kissinger: That is our attitude as well. We are prepared to show maximum understanding of you, for your necessities here.

Morales Bermudez: I would like to say to you . . . (stops as waiter enters to serve drinks.)

Kissinger: (Taking a glass of pure Pisco in his hand) After this I will agree to everything you ask. (Approving smiles all around)

Morales Bermudez: We in Peru as you know are in the midst of a process of profound structural changes. We have 7 years of experience behind us. The revolution has therefore reached a second phase. The first stage achieved much. We are now in a period in which we must both establish continuity and make a few rectifications of policy.

One of the major political problems we have faced has been ensuring that the outside world knows precisely what is happening here in Peru. It has cost us great effort to have outsiders understand our process. Even now many people do not understand what we want and what we have achieved.

Kissinger: I confess that when I came to Washington in 1969 I had some preconceptions myself. At that time we were involved in an expropriation issue. It took me a while to understand the authentic national nature of the process in Peru. Once I had done so, however, I made a great effort to avoid the application of the Hickenlooper Amendment and to establish a basis for better understanding.

Morales Bermudez: Speaking of understanding, we have found it difficult sometimes not only to deal with the external arena, but the internal one as well. There are even now some Peruvians who do not fully understand the revolutionary process and who doubt our ultimate objectives. Therefore, in this second phase we support dialogue as a method opening the revolution, of explaining its purpose, and of learning the feelings of our people.

Kissinger: How do you do this?

Morales Bermudez: We have begun a dialogue not only in the capital but also in the provinces. People have an opportunity to ask and the Government to answer. That way we receive suggestions and resolve worries. We also hold dialogues with organized groups: peasants, workers, miners, industrialists, businessmen, that is to say all social groups.

Kissinger: Where does your major opposition, if any, come from?

Morales Bermudez: Our political path is very difficult. Essentially, we face two sources of opposition. The first is based on the traditional privileged sectors who have had to yield in the interests of the great majorities. The second is from the extreme left which wants to capitalize on some measures of the revolution with different ends in mind. Those are the two flanks of opposition the Government must face.

In this second phase we have opened widely to all sectors of opinion, in compliance with the revolution’s principle of idealogical pluralism, accepting the expression of the views of all groups.

One group is represented by the socialized press. But we have now made an opening to other viewpoints as well. You will find an infinite variety of magazines and other publications expressing all varieties of opinions. We respect these ideas.

Kissinger: I have seen some of the things they have written about me. It certainly seems to reflect a wide variety.

Morales Bermudez: You should see what they have written about us, too.

Kissinger: I am not complaining; you should see the US press.

Morales Bermudez: During the first phase of the revolution, we prepared an overall plan of government, from which are derived our specific economic policies. We are now in the process of revising that plan. This is entirely natural. Conditions and situations have changed, and therefore the objectives must also change. We think that by next March we will already have a new government plan to present to the country.

Kissinger: Your dilemma is that what you achieve is taken for granted, and you have to keep making progress.

Morales Bermudez: That is so. But as concerns our objectives some can be maintained unchanged, others need to be perfected, while others must now be corrected. And as you say we have to keep in mind the need to allow for a process of continuing change.

We want a social democracy with full participation. We had ample experience with formal democracy. As practiced here, it did not give results, so now we are searching for a new form. Our approach is based on socialism of a non-Marxist variety; on nationalism, not chauvinism; and, what is perhaps most important, on Christian humanism; all accompanied by a deep sense of Peru’s history.

Kissinger: Our basic approach is to cooperate with countries even if we have different social philosophies or views of economic organization, so long as there is a basis for international cooperation. We believe each country must determine their internal affairs for themselves.

Morales Bermudez: As concerns foreign policy, you know our position. I know you are a friend of our Foreign Minister and therefore that anything I might say would be redundant.

But I want to stress that the purpose of Peru is that its relations with the United States be the most harmonious possible. We are on the same continent. We cannot escape geographic reality. In addition, many ties have existed between our countries. Applying your principle, differences of idealogies must not be allowed to affect practical realities. We have many common interests. On a basis of maintaining our freedom and independence as a sovereign country, we can overcome our differences.

Kissinger: As you said, Peru and the United States have a tradition of cooperation. We have no conflicting national interests. We are both fundamentally dedicated to peace and progress. Sometimes however, conflicts arise that derive from the way you pursue your national aspirations. We have legislation, of which we do not always approve, whose implementation under such circumstances creates a challenge to practical wisdom. We will go to the limit of what is legally possible. But success it not assured. We have had many sad experiences with many countries of a mutual escalation of unilateral actions. I believe there will be an improvement after the election.

On the one big issue between us, we do not protest your right to take the steps you have taken. But we should make every effort in the next weeks to find a solution. Our side will make a maximum effort. We do not want conflict. But we must ask you to keep in mind our own difficulties. If the problem can be overcome, then we can contribute substantially to the revolutionary program you will announce in March.

Morales Bermudez: In this respect, cooperation should be reciprocal. We do not have a Congress like the United States but we have a very active internal front. I am aware of your problems. The effort you are making is being matched by us. We want no vacuum. You should know we too are making a major effort in our country to avoid problems.

Kissinger: When you mentioned earlier your search for new patterns of democracy, I had been tempted to ask for your advice . . . (laughter), seriously, your attitude will be our attitude. We cannot allow our attitudes to affect the internal structures of other countries. So we are both aware of what we must do. I am sure we can find a constructive outcome. (Pause, then indicating the Foreign Minister). But your negotiators are very good.

Morales Bermudez: This will depend on our Ambassadors as well. Both have fine human qualities.

Kissinger: We have great confidence in our Ambassadors and count on them.

Morales Bermudez: (In aside to Foreign Minister) Will you be talking to Kissinger about this?

De La Flor: Yes, this afternoon. At that meeting I will speak about the critical problem we have all been discussing so far without mentioning its name...

Kissinger: We will do our best. (To De La Flor) We have talked before. You know I do not like to have economic relations affect relations between Governments. This should be settled on political, not economic, grounds. I do not like us to act as lawyers for private companies. But we have some necessities of our own imposed on us. Within those limits will be an understanding of your points of view as our discretion permits.

(To Morales Bermudez) It is important for the United States to show support for a progressive country that seeks the social and economic advance of its people. Therefore we will do everything possible to get a solution.

Morales Bermudez: I have every hope that your visit will be very fruitful for our relations.

Kissinger: This is my intention. For the great problem of our times is how can governments representing peoples with different levels of living cooperate effectively.

Morales Bermudez: We hope also that the US will change somewhat its policy not just toward Peru but toward the rest of Latin America as well. We have been concerned for sometime at the growing distance between us. We have seen the United States very distant from the Latin American countries. A change in United States policy, looking a bit more toward Latin America, will be very fruitful.

Kissinger: Did you have a chance to see what I said in Caracas?

Morales Bermudez: Not yet.

Kissinger: We will send a text. I called attention to the need to establish new patterns of relations and indicated some concrete areas where this could happen.

If I may say so, there is a problem on both sides (Morales Bermudez nods agreement). What usually happens is that someone like myself says something, it is well received, and then nothing happens. What we need is a program that brings our peoples and their governments into regular contact.

I should also mention that for the United States it is important that we not hear just criticism from Latin America. Over time, constant criticism produces discouragement and sometimes animosity among our own peoples. I know one Latin American head of state who specializes in anti-US speeches, then sends us letters that he does not mean what he is saying. Our public never sees the letters (laughter, general winks of agreement as reference is understood).

Morales Bermudez: I agree that is a problem.

Kissinger: We are prepared, if we can find the issues to engage us, to work with you on a weekly or a monthly basis so that we avoid the problem of a speech every six months followed by inaction.

What we have respected about Peru is that you have said in private what you have said in public. This enables us at least to understand the problem, if not always to resolve it.

Morales Bermudez: That is most important.

Kissinger: I appreciate, Mr. President, your courtesy in receiving me so soon after my arrival. We wish you all success.

1. Summary: Kissinger and Morales Bermúdez discussed Peruvian politics and United States–Peruvian relations.

   Source: National Archives, RG 59, Central Foreign Policy File, P820117–0982. Confidential; Nodis. Drafted by Einaudi; approved by Covey on March 8. Kissinger’s February 17 speech in Caracas is in the Department of State Bulletin, March 15, 1976, pp. 313–326. A record of the Kissinger-de la Flor conversation could not be found. The following exchange occurred between Kissinger and Fernández Maldonado on the afternoon of February 18:

   Prime Minister Fernández Maldonado: Talking about Marcona. . .

   The Secretary: I am not here to negotiate on Marcona. I have every confidence in Fishlow and the Ambassador.

   Prime Minister Fernández Maldonado: I was saying to Ambassador Dean that on the basis of this effort this can be resolved shortly.

   The Secretary: We need to have something to deal with the company, so that I can accept. When we have concluded our review of the problem, we will tell you what our judgment is. (Memorandum of Conversation, February 18; ibid., P820117–0977)

2. The Peruvian interpreter embroidered regularly, sometimes mistranslating. This memcon reflects what President actually said. The Secretary and the President, followed by the others, exit to meet photographers. [Footnote in the source text.]