Foreign Relations of the United States, 1969–1976, Volume E–11, Part 1, Documents on Mexico; Central America; and the Caribbean, 1973–1976

41. Memorandum of Conversation¹

Washington, February 13, 1976, 3:30–4 p.m.

SUBJECT

• Secretary’s Meeting with OAS Secretary General

PARTICIPANTS

• OAS

  • Alejandro Orfila, Secretary General

• United States

  • The Secretary
  • William D. Rogers, Assistant Secretary, ARA
  • Mark Dion, Notetaker, USOAS

The Secretary: It’s a pleasure as always to see you, Mr. Secretary-General.

Orfila: I’m very pleased to see you on the eve of your trip to Latin America. I suppose all the preparations are made.

The Secretary: Bill Rogers has me giving more speeches in Latin America in a week than I give here in a year.

Orfila: I am sure what you say will be well received.

The Secretary: Looking at the draft speech, it will take Latin America ten years to get over it and it may turn out to be the greatest disaster since the U.S. took Vera Cruz. What it says is that Latin America should understand and accept our moral superiority. We substitute moral superiority for regionalism.

Mr. Rogers: When are you going to tell him about cancelling the trip? (Laughter)

The Secretary: I am making this trip because I believe in a special relationship and I want to accomplish something—do you think the trip is useful?

Orfila: I think it’s very useful. It comes at the right time. We are drifting apart.

The Secretary: Spoken like a man. Bill, why can’t we say that? Say something frank like that in Venezuela, instead of that horrible drivel you have me saying about an interdependent world.

Orfila: They want you to say something frank. Tell them what your policy is toward Latin America.

The Secretary: You’re always telling us that we have no policy. We talk about a community and everyone criticizes us for trying to form a bloc. We talk about bilateralism and you say we are trying to divide the Latin Americans. What we want to do is put something in the speech about how important we consider the Western Hemisphere. How do we say it to be believed?

Orfila: The word community creates a misunderstanding, because they think of NATO. But if you talk about the importance of Latin America and its special meaning to you, it will be understood. Make it the theme of your trip.

The Secretary: The Latins understand men. They respect frankness. They respect men, not assistant professors of political science.

Orfila: When Douglas Dillon came down to see us in 1962 and said that you would blast the Russians out of Cuba if you had to, we were impressed.

The Secretary: Let me tell you something. If the Cubans think they are going to send another expeditionary force somewhere, we will have a reverse blockade and stop them from leaving. I’m not going to say this out loud, of course.

Orfila: It makes sense, but saying it in Latin America could make lots of enemies.

The Secretary: I’m saying this to you, but that’s all.

Orfila: The OAS is falling apart. The General Assembly meets in Santiago on June 10. This is no time to talk about budgets and committees; we can leave it to the technicians. Let’s talk substance.

The Secretary: Bill, am I going to the GA? How long should I be there, two days?

Mr. Rogers: We would like to keep the issue of your attendance open.

Orfila: You have to go. It’s very important. But you can keep the question open publicly. The people you talk to there will not be happy with things here.

The Secretary: What I want to know is can they explain to me in coherent fashion what we need to stop the drifting apart?

Orfila: No, but they will learn a lot from talking to you and you will learn from talking to them. You believe our relationship is important.

The Secretary: I believe in a special relationship. I’ve experienced it. I would like to restore it. That is what I want to say on this trip, not the horrible pap they have me saying. Bill, why can’t I say what he says? Can’t we put it in the Caracas speech?

Orfila: Go to Santiago and use the two or three days to restore the OAS, rebuild this organization. Leave the budgets and administration to technicians.

The Secretary: Bill, put in a speech for Caracas that if we are not going to have a new dialogue outside the OAS, then we should use the OAS itself to build a new relationship. Why shouldn’t I go to Santiago? With the credit I have in this country, there is no reason for me not to go. I might well go.

Orfila: Before you throw me out, I would like to raise one more subject—Bolivia.

The Secretary: Are you saying that I would throw you out of here?

Orfila: (Laughing) It is very important that Peru be convinced that it should go along with Chile and Bolivia on the question of Bolivian access to the sea. Carlos Andres Perez will take this up with you in Caracas.

Mr. Rogers: Alex, are you asking the Secretary to take this up in Lima?

Orfila: No, I’m saying only be very careful. Do not reveal any U.S. position but only say to the Peruvians that a solution of this old problem will be very well received.

Mr. Rogers: That’s fine, that’s all right. Perez will take this up with you in Caracas because he also thinks it’s important.

The Secretary: What do you think of Perez?

Orfila: This has to be off the record but for me Perez is number one in Latin America. A very interesting, able person.

The Secretary: What’s Geisel like?

Orfila: Whatever you hear, he is good, charming, has definite ideas, he is very pro-American. He will probably bring up countervailing duties.

Mr. Rogers: We think he will.

The Secretary: Bill, can we say anything?

Mr. Rogers: It’s very hard to say anything; we are locked in because of the Congress.

Orfila: I had the same problem with shoes when I was Ambassador of Argentina. It was necessary to change a word. We had to get rid of the word subsidy and find another word.

Mr. Rogers: We can try for something like that.

The Secretary: What else is on your mind?

Orfila: Central America.

The Secretary: I’m supposed to be seeing all the presidents of Central America at San Jose but another one drops out every day. I understand of course about Laugerud but the other one, Molina, I don’t understand. No one in the U.S. cares about Central America but my going there, with a large party of newsmen, will focus attention and create interest. If two of the chiefs of state don’t come, stories will appear here about how they didn’t care to meet with me. That will go badly here, although my prestige does not require me to meet with them. The point is to focus attention on Central America.

Orfila: Would it help if I called Molina or if I called all four of them? I know all of them well. Let me ask you to raise the OAS with Perez and the others in Caracas.

The Secretary: Call them and tell them to come. He (referring to Rogers) is against the OAS.

Orfila: Yes, he’s against the OAS, the way it is at present. He is right. He also understands that we have to preserve the forum. Bill knows, and I think you know, that the Permanent Council is making my life impossible. But we can’t just say, do away with the Permanent Council. We have to do something like they did in the UN.

The Secretary: The Latin American foreign ministers would be the supreme body.

Orfila: Yes, with the Permanent Council meeting rarely like the Security Council.

The Secretary: So there would be no Permanent Missions, no OAS ambassadors?

Orfila: There could be ambassadors but they would meet much less often. Right now the organization is simply dwindling. The present reform, going over the charter articles again and again, that is changing nothing.

The Secretary: What do you think about Cuba?

Orfila: Angola has been a big set back and everyone knows it.

The Secretary: I am not going on this trip to carry on a crusade against Cuba. Is that understood?

Orfila: No one is pushing for Cuba these days except perhaps Torrijos.

The Secretary: Torrijos approves of Angola?

Orfila: No, but Torrijos is on a tight rope. He has great pressure on him from inside and he has to do things that will maintain his balance. He has to keep the peace internally. You know that Panama will be raised in Caracas and in Central America; perhaps marginally in Brazil and Peru also.

The Secretary: They should understand that we need silence in Panama. I can’t speak out on this subject or it could have domestic political repercussions—especially before the New Hampshire and Florida primaries. All I can say is that we are negotiating in good faith.

Mr. Rogers: When I was in Caracas I spoke with Perez. He knows what the situation is and will not push us.

The Secretary: Do we have to expect trouble on this score during the visit, riots, perhaps?

Orfila: No, no, no trouble. Some questions from the press, questions from leaders. To go back, we are drifting apart. We have to do something about it.

The Secretary: I’ve spent the last week beating up my associates. I want to say that we have a problem. Let’s face it. Don’t say everything’s fine. We have a special relationship and we have to save it. What we need to do is to get ready between now and June to accomplish something serious. The General Assembly in June provides an opportunity. I can use this trip to begin the process and between now and then we can make good progress. But the Assembly must be set up as it was here last year, for informal meetings. We have to avoid those horrible speeches.

Mr. Rogers: The trip is the opportunity to forewarn them about what we have in mind.

The Secretary: Bill, you have to get this in the Venezuela speech and also in the toast in Brasilia. I don’t mind saying it twice. The point is, this is a serious trip and I would like you (Orfila) to get this across to your colleagues. I will be travelling with a great number of journalists and if they beat up on me in Latin America, there will be lots of bad publicity here.

Orfila: Would you like me to say to the press just that—that this is a serious trip, a substantive trip and that you have important things to say to those you will be meeting?

The Secretary: I would like that very much. You know it’s not in my nature to go off on a goodwill visit. I have serious purposes in mind.

Orfila: I will make this clear when I go downstairs.

The Secretary: Thank you so much for coming. It’s always a pleasure to see you. I respect your views.

Orfila: And I respect yours. Have a good trip.

1. Summary: In a conversation with OAS Secretary General Orfila, Kissinger discussed his upcoming trip to Latin America and the state of U.S. relations with the region.

   Source: National Archives, RG 59, Central Foreign Policy File, P820117–0900. Confidential; Nodis. Drafted by Mark Dion in ARA/USOAS, and approved by James Covey in S on March 12.