214. Memorandum of Conversation1 2
SUBJECT :
- Meeting with Foreign Minister Chavan
PARTICIPANTS:
- India
- Y.B. Chavan, Minister of External Affairs
- G. Parthasarathi, Chief of Policy Planning, Ministry of External Affairs
- Kewal Singh, Secretary, Ministry of External Affairs
- J.S. Teja, Joint Secretary, Ministry of External Affairs
- A.P. Venkateswaran, Minister (Political), Embassy of India
- T.N. Kaul, Ambassador to the United States
- M.G. Kaul, Secretary, Ministry of Finance
- United States
- The Secretary
- Joseph J. Sisco, Under Secretary for Political Affairs
- Alfred L. Atherton, Jr., Assistant Secretary, NEA
- William B. Saxbe, Ambassador to India
- Dennis Kux, Country Director for India, Nepal and Sri Lanka
The Secretary: Are there some parts of India where they drink coffee?
Chavan: Oh, yes, in the south they drink coffee.
Parthasarathi: They grow very good coffee in Madras, but it is made differently than in the U.S.
The Secretary: What do they drink in Kashmir?
[Page 2]T.N. Kaul: Fresh air and love.
Saxbe: They have a special kind of green tea in which walnuts and safron are also mixed. It’s very good.
Chavan: There is one point I want to make. We have very significant cooperation going forward with Iran. We are making good progress. These projects call for long-term cooperation.
The Secretary: We are trying to encourage Iran in this direction. We are also trying to urge them to develop a fertilizer industry for the whole Indian Ocean area.
Chavan: The Iranians have mentioned the idea of an Indian Ocean community, something like the Common Market, but this needs to have all the countries of the area in it, including Pakistan and Afghanistan. It’s an interesting idea.
The Secretary: What is your view of the Pakistan-Afghanistan relations?
Chavan: Pushtunistan is still a problem. Afghanistan feels that Pakistan is creating problems by trying to stir up subversion. They have a genuine concern. We are advising patience and restraint. They are also in touch with the Iranians.
The Secretary: That is good advice.
T.N. Kaul: Is anybody suggesting that the Pakistanis show restraint?
The Secretary: Could your Ambassador be instructed to say one unaggressive sentence?
Singh: We told the Afghans that they should try to solve their problems with the Pakistanis. Recently they complained about some sort of Pak effort to stir up some insurgency. Our advice is to continue dialogue and to work for peace.
Chavan: In China will you take up the question of Asian peace? This is a matter of concern to us as it should be to you.
[Page 3]The Secretary: It is. We certainly will let you know our view of the Chinese assessment. We will tell your Ambassador. We will not give any encouragement to any Chinese aggressive move. We will try to get a clearer picture of how they view South Asia.
Chavan: We are worried about Bangladesh. Radical movements are already there. If Pakistan and China converge their efforts, this could pose a problem. This would be a new factor in South Asia which needs assessment.
The Secretary: We will discuss it. Naturally it will come up. Previously the Chinese were opposed to Bangladesh. They were not among Mujib’s admirers. Do we know who the Bangladesh new foreign minister represents? Is he a policy maker or simply carrying out orders? I made it clear when we talked that we favor good relations with India.
Chavan: He also made this point to me.
The Secretary: What is his background?
Chavan: He was the first President of Bangladesh and then became their ambassador to Switzerland after Mujib took over the presidency.
Singh: At the very end he became minister of shipping under Mujib but never actually took over the job.
The Secretary: Did you have any advance indication of the coup?
Singh: None.
The Secretary: People are always complaining that we don’t know about things in advance. This is coming up now in Congressional hearings. They should realize that any coup that succeeds must have fooled someone. Mujib just couldn’t have imagined that anyone would organize a coup against him. As I understand it, your relations with Bangladesh are now good. What you are concerned about is a future possibility.
Chavan: Yes, our relations are now good. The new government has reaffirmed various agreements on problems like our boundaries and the Farakka Barrage.
[Page 4]T.N. Kaul: The danger is Pan Islamism.
The Secretary: We may become allies yet.
T.N.Kaul: We are the third largest Muslim country. What is a Muslim country?
The Secretary: Don’t ask me that question. I can’t help you. I don’t know what a Muslim country is but whatever it is I don’t think India qualifies, but I agree this is a long-term problem.
T.N. Kaul: Especially when people like Qaddafi are sending money to arm people.
Saxbe: What about Amin?
The Secretary: He is a Muslim and Islam is proselytizing most of Africa. In fact, it is the most active proselytizing religion.
Saxbe: But they are the ones that sold the Africans into slavery.
The Secretary: The real worry would be if countries with resources like Saudi Arabia get radical leaders. Then there would be trouble.
T.N.Kaul: One reason why we banned the Jamaat Islami and RSS is that these parties were getting money from the outside.
The Secretary: Let me say again how happy we are to have you here. Are there any other subjects you want to raise?
Chavan: Well, we covered most of the subjects yesterday. But the Indian people would expect me to mention the Indian Ocean. If I don’t mention it the meeting would not be complete.
The Secretary: In that case, can I say something also about nuclear proliferation? (Laughter)
As the group got up to depart, the Secretary asked to talk privately with Chavan and the two Ambassadors.
- Source: National Archives, RG 59, Central Foreign Policy Files, P820123–2242. Confidential; Nodis. It was drafted by Kux and approved on November 4 in S. The meeting took place in the Secretary’s office.↩
- Indian Foreign Minister Chavan met with Secretary of State Kissinger and discussed India’s foreign relations and the coup in Bangladesh.↩