145. Telephone Conversation Between President Johnson and the President’s Special Assistant for National Security Affairs (Bundy)1
[Omitted here is discussion of several foreign affairs issues.]
President: I never talk to Tom [Mann]. I haven’t talked to Tom. I always talk to Rusk.
Bundy: Yup.
President: But, maybe I ought to talk to Tom more. Do you think I ought to?
Bundy: I think that when we get issues up, that Tom should be in where you and he can hear each other.
President: Oh yes, I think that’s right with issues up. But I’m talking about—
Bundy: No, I think you ought to conduct your business either with Rusk or on a staff basis through my office. I think that’s easier and more efficient really.
President: You know, it’s mighty easy for me to call Mike Forrestal on say Vietnam, but I wonder what his boss thinks when the President’s calling him every hour.
Bundy: It doesn’t bother me, Mr. President.
President: No, it wouldn’t bother you, but don’t you think a boss ought to normally feel like that he’s entitled to be on top of the job?
Bundy: Well, I think if it’s something you want hot information on, Mr. President, you ought to call where you can get it fastest. When it’s a decision or an organization problem, then I think-but I don’t think you need any lessons on that. [Bundy laughs]
President: Well my judgment—I follow the charts pretty well, and I think a man that’s sure of himself doesn’t hesitate to have Komer sitting in here with me right now. He’s not afraid Komer’s going to get his job. But, I think the boss pretty well ought to deal with the other boss if he can.
[Omitted here is discussion of Walter Lippmann and relations with the press.]
- Source: Johnson Library, Recordings and Transcripts, Recording of a Telephone Conversation between President Johnson and McGeorge Bundy, Tape F64.23, Side B, PNO 1. No classification marking. This transcript was prepared in the Office of the Historian specifically for this volume.↩