Foreign Relations of the United States, 1964–1968, Volume XXVIII, Laos

259. Memorandum of Conversation¹

New York, October 13, 1966.

SUBJECT

• Situation in Southeast Asia

PARTICIPANTS

• The President
• Prince Souvanna Phouma, Prime Minister of Laos
• Sisouk na Champassak, Minister of Finance
• Khamking Souvanlasy, Lao Ambassador
• Leonard Unger, Deputy Asst. Secretary for Far Eastern Affairs
• Norman Armour, Assistant Chief of Protocol

The President expressed his regret at having been unable, because of his illness, to meet with the Prime Minister last year. He was following with much interest the efforts of the Prime Minister.² He was aware of the Prime Minister’s responsibilities and that many problems came with them. He had been looking forward to this meeting very much and hoped that the Prime Minister would give him a good fill-in on the situation in Laos and Southeast Asia. He would greatly value hearing the Prime Minister’s views and opinions on any subjects he cared to discuss.

The Prime Minister responded that the situation in Southeast Asia was very complex, made even more so by the show of bad will on the part of the Chinese and the North Vietnamese. It had been apparent for some time that the Chinese influence was now the dominant factor. The North Vietnamese tended to draw closer to the Soviet Union and their attitude was more reasonable than the Chinese. Asked by the President if this was a good development, the Prime Minister said that it was indeed encouraging. North Vietnam had much to fear from a neighbor such as China which had dominated Vietnam for centuries. (Later the Prime Minister elaborated on Soviet influence in North Vietnam stating that the Soviets were attempting to gain more influence in that country, but do not have much at the moment.) With the Soviet Union there was at least a possibility of reaching an understanding. The Soviet Union was closer to the countries of the West than China which was completely isolated.

Asked by the President to place himself in the President’s role for a moment and say what he would do differently, what he would do that the President was not doing at this time, the Prime Minister emphasized that there was no other solution outside of what the President was now doing. “Would you stop the bombings?” asked the President. “No,” replied the Prime Minister, “because the time is not propitious. North Vietnam has been living a fiction based upon their victory over the French at Dien Bien Phu.” The Prime Minister said he had talked many times with General Giap; Giap feels very strong, he feels that when it comes to infantry the North Vietnamese troops are the best in the world. “What do you think?” asked the President. The Prime Minister asserted that as fighting men they did have great valor. “Why aren’t they fighting then; they have 4 to 5 divisions there?” continued the President. The Prime Minister stressed that they were waiting for the right moment.

He said that the North Vietnamese have two aims, one is the socialist conquest of the other countries of Indochina: South Vietnam, Central Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. The North Vietnamese flag shows a star with five points denoting the five countries of Indochina. The Prime Minister explained that with their dense and increasing population the North Vietnamese needed more land. As the President knew, under the French South Vietnam fed the North. With more population the North needed to extend itself toward the delta. The North Vietnamese had also taken over a concept which was developed by the French Government in colonial days: Laos, with its still abundant resources, colonized by Vietnam and controlled from Hanoi. This then was the dual thrust of the North Vietnamese: the socialist conquest and the need for more living space.

The President reiterated his question to the Prime Minister: What would he do that the President was not doing? The Prime Minister replied that the North Vietnamese needed to be shown how much stronger the United States was than they, then they would come to the conference table. They counted on a victory by force of arms as they did over the French. The second point was to give South Vietnam a democratic and stable regime. It was also necessary to give that government the means to increase its economic level to a point where it would be higher than that of the North. The last elections in South Vietnam, continued the Prime Minister, had shown that the people were against a communist regime. He added that even in North Vietnam, where the regime dominated by force and terror, it would be an error to believe that all North Vietnamese were communists. So if for some time the United States continued to bomb North Vietnam, destroying its economic potential and its military installations, and at the same time continued to conduct military strikes against North Vietnamese and Viet Cong troops in the South, this would help bring them to the conference table. The Prime Minister said that the President had been absolutely right to assert that his country was not attempting to destroy the regime of the North; this point was very important for their leaders. Asked what kind of installations he would bomb, such as steel mills, cement plants, dikes, etc., the Prime Minister answered that these were the type of targets he had in mind and he commented further, after being asked by the President if this would not entail many civilian losses, that such plants were usually on the periphery of the towns and that in any case the towns had been evacuated and there would not be many victims. He felt that while in April 1964, at the time of his last visit to Hanoi, the North Vietnamese were very confident of military success, this could no longer be the case because of the strength deployed by the U.S.

The President asked if the Prime Minister would be agreeable to saying a few words to the press and together they outlined what the Prime Minister might say. The Prime Minister listed the following points: This was his first call on the President. He had availed himself of this opportunity to inform the President of the situation in Southeast Asia. Together they have reviewed the situation there trying to find the solution to the present problems. The Prime Minister saw the convening of a conference with a membership similar to, or broader than, the Geneva conference of 1954 as the way to a solution.

While waiting for the press to appear, the President asked the Prime Minister for information about the recent floods. The Prime Minister emphasized what a great disappointment this tragedy had been for his country. They had lost a bumper crop of rice. Thanks to the aid of friendly countries and in particular of USAID they had overcome the difficulties and forestalled epidemics. Damage was valued at approximately $5 million mostly in crops and buildings destroyed and livestock killed. The President asked if there had been many losses in human lives and the Prime Minister said there had been about one hundred victims. It was the worst disaster in 40 years. The President assured the Prime Minister that we wanted to work very closely with his government to meet the problems caused by the flood and that we wanted to do all we could to help.

The President assured the Prime Minister of our desire to play a positive, constructive role for stability in Southeast Asia. We did not want to keep troops there, or bases, or dictate the political affairs of any of these countries. We wanted to be a helpful friend, not a dominating presence. At the same time we believed that freedom and self-determination were very important for the people of Southeast Asia just as they were for any American family. We did not want to widen the conflict, stated the President.

The President urged the Prime Minister to stimulate as many countries as possible to take an active interest in helping foster the economic development of Laos. We were very much aware of our commitment under the 1962 Agreement and we wanted Laos to live in peace and tranquility and we would continue to help in the economic development of Laos.

The President pledged his personal support to the Prime Minister and his difficult task. The President emphasized the importance of a meeting such as the forthcoming Manila conference. He said also that the Asian Development Bank and our concern with regional development in Asia must surely help convince the people of that region that we were not interested in Europe alone. At Manila we shall meet with the chiefs of state of all countries having troops in Vietnam. We were ready to go immediately from the battlefield to the conference table. It should be clear to all by now that it was Ho Chi Minh who refused to do the talking. The Koreans had about 50 thousand troops in South Vietnam now, the Philippines were sending a contingent, Australia/New Zealand had sizeable contingents and we were increasing our own forces. Hanoi must certainly understand that it could not win.

Asked about his own plans and projects for the development of Laos, the Prime Minister mentioned the trips he had made to get help from other friendly countries. Then he cited a project involving a bridge over the Mekong. It was hoped that Japan would participate in that venture, and he would be happy if USG would take the initiative with regard to the project. The President said he would explore this. The President also assured the Prime Minister of our continued participation in FEOF.

[The press then came in and the Prime Minister and the President each made statements.]³

Following the statements to the press, the President told the Prime Minister that, although he had only a few moments left, he wanted to hear the Prime Minister’s views on what was happening in South China today, what were the real conditions in North Vietnam, how much longer could they hold, and who was the real key in bringing them to the conference table. On China, the Prime Minister thought that the activities of the Red Guards were indeed a very serious development. He thought the situation could not remain as it was in North Vietnam very long. Their difficulties were very serious. They had very little food; they had to work at night. They could not sustain this very long. Asked who was boss in Hanoi, the Prime Minister pointed out that Ho Chi Minh was largely a figure-head whose name and reputation were used. The most influential members of the collective leadership were, in his opinion, Pham Van Dong and Giap. The former, an intellectual, was more reasonable than Giap who was very militant and impressed with the past victories. As an indication of the difficulties in North Vietnam, the Prime Minister cited the fact that the North Vietnamese no longer aided the Pathet Lao; this aid was now given solely by the Chinese.

In conclusion, the Prime Minister reiterated what he had said publicly on other occasions that if South Vietnam became communist tomorrow, Laos would be lost. Laos stood as a buffer in front of Thailand, Laos was actually the front line for Thailand. The Prime Minister fully agreed with the President that if the U.S. pulled out of Vietnam, it would not take the Chinese too long to be in Honolulu.

The President again assured the Prime Minister that he was giving him his full personal support in the efforts he was making.

1. Source: Johnson Library, National Security File, Country File, Laos, Vol. XVI, Memos, 2/66–1/67. Secret. Drafted by Slutz and Alex Toumayan of Language Services on October 13.
2. The Department of State prepared a briefing memorandum for President Johnson’s meeting with Souvanna. (Memorandum from Rusk to Johnson, October 11; Department of State, Central Files, POL 7 Laos) A copy was attached to Document 256.
3. Brackets in the source text. Johnson’s and Souvanna’s statements made at a news conference in New York on October 13 are printed in American Foreign Policy: Current Documents, 1966, pp. 718–720.