274. Memorandum of a Conversation, Department of State, Washington, October 4, 19571
SUBJECT
- Call of the Indonesian Minister of Foreign Affairs
PARTICIPANTS
- Dr. Subandrio, Indonesian Foreign Minister
- Mr. Mukarto Notowidigdo, Ambassador, Indonesian Embassy
- The Secretary
- Mr. Walter S. Robertson, Assistant Secretary for FE
- Mr. John Gordon Mein, Director, Southwest Pacific Affairs
Dr. Subandrio asked the Secretary to excuse him for his insistence on seeing him but he thought it was desirable that he give the Secretary some first-hand information on the situation in Indonesia to avoid any possible misunderstanding concerning what is going on there.
[Page 472]Dr. Subandrio stated that in his opinion the developments in Indonesia are toward democracy and that this fact is not understood. He said that the people want to establish a democratic system, and that they are moving in that direction, but that such a system cannot be established on the basis of only one election. The people want to preserve the democratic system, he said, but are aware that if Indonesia continues as it has during the past year there will be chaos and anarchy. The Indonesians are beginning to realize that Djakarta is not all of Indonesia and that the other regions are also part of the country.
Dr. Subandrio said that Indonesia has cordial relations with the United States and that it wishes to maintain them, but it does not want to develop democratic government based on dependence on the United States. It is a fact that Sukarno in some of his statements casts doubt on the motives of the United States, but it is not possible to identify him with communism. He said that Sukarno was impressed with what he saw in China, not with communism but with the will to work which he noticed among the people. The tension in Indonesia at the present time, in Dr. Subandrio’s opinion, is a result of independence and is a sign of progress. He cited as an illustration of the progress that has been made since independence the increase in the number of school children which now totals about nine million.
According to Dr. Subandrio the Indonesians feel themselves somewhat isolated. Their relations with the Dutch and the British are correct, but not close. Of all the western countries the United States is the only one with which they feel they have cordial relations. He is afraid that if there is a cooling-off of relations with the United States, the people will drift to the communist bloc. There is a great need, therefore, at this time for assistance from the United States and understanding on the part of the United States of the problems facing Indonesia. Nobody in Indonesia, however, wishes to deviate from the path of democracy.
Commenting on Dr. Sukarno’s proposal for “guided democracy” Dr. Subandrio said that this has not to do with democracy as such, but means only that since parliament and the political parties have not been meeting the needs of the people somebody must guide them.
Dr. Subandrio stated that it is the desire of his government to normalize relations with the Netherlands and that until they are normalized the government is inhibited from doing anything to improve the popular attitude toward the Dutch Government. As to West Irian, which he said the Indonesian Government realizes must be seen by the United States in the light of its global responsibilities, the Indonesian Government understands our position. It would help, [Page 473] however, if the U.S. could find some way of supporting Indonesia’s desire for discussions with the Dutch, which could last over a period of years. Such discussions would help overcome the psychological barriers now present. He is afraid that local explosive tensions might degenerate and get out of control, especially by the Communists although the government itself will not use force as a means of settling the issue. He fears also that the Soviet Union may take advantage of the situation and in retaliation for the U.S. making arms available to some countries ship military equipment into the area. He said that up to now the Indonesian Government has not accepted any Soviet offer of arms.
The Secretary stated that we have felt some concern over developments in Indonesia. He referred to his visit to Indonesia in March 1956, stating that he thought that at that time a start had been made for better relations, pointing out that at that time we had just entered into an agreement with the Indonesian Government for sale of surplus commodities, that an invitation was issued to President Sukarno who visited the United States, and that all these steps had greatly strained our relations with the Dutch. Nevertheless, we did what we thought were the right things to do. We are not bound to our allies in Europe in any respect except through NATO, which does not in any way relate to Indonesia. The Secretary stated that he had hoped that as a result our relations would become closer.
The contrary, however, has happened and they have drifted. The reasons for this are the increase in Communist strength, the tendency to accept some measure of Communist influence in the Government, and the inability of the Government to meet the problems of Indonesia as evidenced by the action of some people in the outer islands. All these things have caused regret and concern as to the course being taken by the Indonesian Government. The Secretary said that he was glad to get the reassurances given by Dr. Subandrio and he hoped that they would be maintained.
The Secretary said that when constitutional procedures are avoided it raises questions. We realize that there is no particular pattern for democracy, that there are many ways of practicing democracy, and that we are not narrow-minded in that respect, but we do see a pattern of Soviet encroachment. There are a number of countries that feel they can be quiescent and nothing will happen. We have seen that when the Communists get a grip on a country they never give up. Several countries which were independent before the war have become Soviet satellites and not one of them has been able to regain its independence. Some 12 countries formerly independent are no longer so. Referring specifically to the Baltic States the Secretary said that although the Soviet Government in 1939 put out a statement that the Sovietization of the Baltic States was not sought those [Page 474] States were nevertheless taken over. Today some nations in the United Nations state in public that they are not afraid, although that is not what they tell us in private. When a nation tells us that it is not afraid, that, in the Secretary’s opinion, is the beginning of the end. Even the United States is afraid. We are fearful of the power of the Soviet Union. This, however, does not mean we will shrink from it.
The Secretary said that somewhere in the Bible it says that “fear is the beginning of wisdom”, which is a sound statement calling attention to the danger and warning that something must be done about it. Young countries, especially, when they cannot stand morally alone take the stand that they are not afraid and that they can handle the problem. They are not being wise and there is danger. The Secretary stated that he realized that western colonialism had many things to condemn it and the United States has always been against it. Since the war many nations have been given their independence by the western countries, while at the same time others have lost their independence. There is a difference between those which have let go of some 20 nations and those who over the same period have taken over some 12 nations. It cannot be said that these two things—the kind of society that freely allows people to go and exercise their independence and that which shackles others—are equal. To equate these is not very wise.
The United States is going to survive, the Secretary said. We would rather survive in a world of free nations but we can survive even if we have to withdraw to our own shores. It would be much better, however, if we were to survive in a free world. The Indonesians go to China and are impressed with the developments they see. They do not stop, however, to consider how these developments have been possible, that is at the sacrifice of human liberty. If that kind of despotism ruled in Indonesia the people there would probably be able to produce more than in a free society. Human beings, however, have never been prepared to exchange human liberties for economic development. The hope of the United States is that the people of Indonesia will not be satisfied with such a development.
When we see elements in Indonesia wanting that kind of development it causes us great concern. We want nothing out of Indonesia. This nation is dedicated to freedom, to helping others get their independence, so that when we see things going in the direction of despotism and the loss of human liberties, we grieve, not because we want anything from those people but because it is an indication that we are not fulfilling our purpose. The only thing in which we are interested is the freedom of Indonesia. We are worried when we see the trend in Indonesia which is contrary to that which we had hoped for when we helped Indonesia obtain her independence.
[Page 475]Dr. Subandrio stated that he fully understood and shared our concern. He said that this reflects the thinking of most people in Indonesia. The local elections have been an eye-opener for all. In the National Conference the mood was one of, if not anti-communism, certainly non-communism. The Communists have gained in Java as a result of the complacency of the other parties. Even the PNI, which previously cooperated with the Communists, are now anti-PKI. The important point, Dr. Subandrio said, is how the United States can support Indonesia at this time. In his opinion one of the best ways would be not to attack Sukarno personally and thereby risk driving him further the other way.
Dr. Subandrio again expressed his deep appreciation for having been received by the Secretary.
- Source: Department of State, Central Files, 611.56D/10–457. Confidential. Drafted by Mein.↩