RSC Lot 60–D 224, Box 99: UNCIO Cons Five Min 26
Minutes of the Twenty-Sixth Five-Power Informal Consultative Meeting on Proposed Amendments, Held at San Francisco, June 19, 1945, 5 p.m.
[Here follows list of names of participants, including members of delegations of the United States (15); United Kingdom (1); Soviet Union (3); China (2); France (2); and the International Secretariat (1).]
Mr. Stettinius of the United States presided and called the meeting to order. He asked Ambassador Gromyko to give the group a statement which he believed the Ambassador had ready.
Ambassador Gromyko announced that in connection with the question which had been raised by him in the Executive Committee and in the Steering Committee, and which had been discussed here yesterday, he wanted to submit a new text of a paragraph as a substitute [Page 1378] both for Dr. Evatt’s text and for the text prepared here yesterday.48 He then read the text as follows:
“The General Assembly has the right to discuss any questions or any matters within the sphere of the functions or powers covered by this Section, or relating to the powers and functions of any organs provided for in the Charter, and, except as provided for in paragraph 2 (B) of this section, to make recommendations to the members of the United Nations or to the Security Council or both on any such questions or matters.”
Mr. Stettinius asked Ambassador Gromyko if he would give the reasons for dropping the reference to the principles and purposes of the Charter in this paragraph. Ambassador Gromyko replied that the phrase “powers and functions of any organs” would cover this. Mr. Stettinius thought it would be less vague to have a reference to the principles and purposes of the Charter.
Senator Vandenberg thought that we were very close on the text. He recalled that Ambassador Gromyko had been frank in saying that there was no objection to the General Assembly’s discussing anything in the principles and purposes in the Charter. He thought this additional phrase would be indispensable to Dr. Evatt and his group; and that if this phrase were added that Dr. Evatt would accept this text. He suggested that there be inserted after the phrase “within the sphere” the following language: “the principles and purposes of the Charter”.
Lord Halifax agreed with Senator Vandenberg that we were quite close on the draft. He thought we must get the thing generally agreed upon quickly. He could not think that the Senator’s suggestion would be unpalatable or difficult to the Ambassador, since we agreed yesterday that there was no controversy in this respect. At the worst, the addition of the phrase suggested by the Senator would be a repetition. Lord Halifax observed that knowing Dr. Evatt, he thought that the nearer we kept to his words, the easier the task would be. He, therefore, hoped that the Ambassador would agree to the inclusion of these words.
Ambassador Gromyko thought the reference to “organs” was adequate, noting that the organs of the United Nations must operate according to the principles and purposes of the Charter. M. Dejean thought it was only a question of words, and that the substance was the same. He felt that on such an important matter the question of words ought not to divide us. Mr. Stettinius commented that we all mean the same thing.
[Page 1379]Dr. Koo remarked that he did not understand the significance of the change proposed in the Russian draft, providing for discussion by the General Assembly of matters relating to the functions and powers of organs provided for by the Charter. He noted that in the Chapter on the General Assembly, only Section B mentions the powers and functions of that body. The same is true of the Chapter on the Security Council where only one Section refers to its powers and functions. He wanted to know if the Ambassador meant by this draft to limit the General Assembly’s discussion to only those two Sections. For example, he observed, the voting Section on the Security Council was outside the Section relating to its powers and functions. Dr. Koo wanted the following words inserted: “or otherwise covered by the purposes and principles of the Charter”. He felt this language would make the text clearer and that it should be added so as to make the text clear beyond any misunderstanding.
Ambassador Gromyko said that he could not agree with this. He observed that under his draft, the General Assembly could discuss any question relating to powers of any organ of the United Nations, the Economic and Social Council, the Trusteeship Council, judicial problems, etc. He thought this covered everything that is in the Charter, and that all questions were covered by “organs of the Charter”. He observed that there was no exception to this except for paragraph 2 (B). He thought that the General Assembly could discuss the broadest possible scope of questions under this draft.
Lord Halifax did not suppose that the Ambassador and the rest of the group had any substantial difference of purpose. He felt it was important, however, to consider the effect in the minds of the Technical Committee as they compared this text with the draft which they already had. He thought the Committee would ask immediately the question: do you mean that the words in this draft cover the same things as the words “purposes and principles of the Charter”? If so, why don’t you say it? If you do not mean this, you limit the General Assembly to discussion of something less than the principles and purposes of the Charter, and that is unacceptable. Lord Halifax pointed out that this change in the text carries the implication of attempting to limit the Assembly’s discussion.
Ambassador Gromyko thought that his draft meant that the General Assembly could talk about anything. M. Dejean said he could not see any difference between the two texts.
Mr. Stettinius thought that the General Assembly could discuss all matters relating to the Charter. Ambassador Gromyko thought that if the language “principles and purposes of the Charter” were used, it would mean that the General Assembly could discuss any [Page 1380] question in the sphere of international relations. Mr. Stettinius thought it was just a matter of wording. Lord Halifax asked that the Section referred to in this draft be read aloud. Mr. Dulles then read aloud the text of Chapter V, Section B, as adopted by Committee II/2 on May 29, 1945.49 Mr. Dulles thought that from Dr. Evatt’s standpoint, his group would raise the same question that Dr. Koo had raised. That is, they would ask whether the phrase “powers and functions of any organs” is a technical phrase designed merely to pick up by reference three Sections of the Charter, i.e., Chapter V, Section B on the General Assembly; Chapter VIII, Section B on the Security Council; and Chapter X, Section 9 on the Economic and Social Council. He noted that the words “functions and powers” were used in these three places as a technical phrase. He asked the Ambassador, therefore, if this phrase were designed to refer only to these three Sections or to refer broadly to all powers of the organs of the United Nations. In other words, he wanted to know if the Ambassador intended that the General Assembly should be excluded from broader discussion by these words.
Ambassador Gromyko thought this phrase was broad enough to include the whole scope of the questions with which the organs will deal. He said he thought if we said “purposes and principles” any member of the Organization could raise any question and justify this on the ground that it relates to the principles and purposes of the Organization. He said that they could always raise any question without limitation because this language is so very vague.
On the other hand, if we say that the General Assembly can discuss any question within the sphere of the powers and functions of any organs provided for in the Charter, this will not allow any member of the Organization to raise and discuss questions which are not within the scope of the functions and powers of any organ. This formula, he thought, was so broad that it offered practically unlimited possibilities for the General Assembly to discuss international questions relating to the maintenance of peace and security, economic cooperation, trusteeship, judicial questions, etc.
Mr. Stettinius thought that in order to save time, the proper procedure would be to talk with Dr. Evatt promptly and put the Soviet proposal to him. Speaking for the United States Delegation, he preferred the phrase “principles and purposes of the Charter”. However, in order to get ahead, he would accept the provision for discussion with respect to powers and functions of the organs of the United Nations, on the basis of the interpretation that it is all inclusive, provided that Dr. Evatt agreed to it. Senator Vandenberg said that he would not vote against the proposition that the General Assembly [Page 1381] could deal with anything in the Charter. Mr. Stettinius stated that the United States would vote in favor of the provision that the General Assembly can discuss anything in the Charter at any time.
Lord Halifax said that his position was the same, and that he would sooner see the phrase “principles and purposes” included. He did not think, however, that there was any division in substance, in view of the interpretation of the Russian text that the General Assembly was not in fact debarred from discussing anything in the Charter. He wondered if we could reach an agreement on this.
M. Dejean stated that he agreed. He noted that Chapter VI, Section B, Article 2 provided that the Security Council must act in accordance with the principles and purposes of the Organization; and that if the General Assembly could discuss any power or function of any organ, it should be able to discuss the purposes and principles, of the Organization under this provision. Mr. Stettinius observed that this was inherent. He asked M. Dejean if he were willing to have him discuss this matter with Dr. Evatt. M. Dejean said he would accept the Soviet text if Dr. Evatt would.
Dr. Koo said that he wanted to be clear as to what the phrase in the Russian text meant, and whether it referred only to the three Sections or to all of the Charter. Mr. Stettinius said that the answer has ta be “yes” before the United States Delegation would support the proposal. Dr. Koo asked Ambassador Gromyko if this phrase in the Russian text limited the General Assembly’s discussion to the three Sections relating to the powers and functions of the General Assembly, the Security Council, the Economic and Social Council, or whether the General Assembly would have the right to discuss the Charter as, a whole. If this text limited the General Assembly’s right of discussion to those three Sections, he wanted to think it over.
Ambassador Gromyko stated that the phrase “powers and functions, of any organs” did not mean just the technical side, but rather, had the broader meaning, and that the General Assembly could deal with all matters with which all organs can deal.
Mr. Dulles asked if we could use the words the Ambassador had just used and get away from the technical phrase “powers and functions”. He stated that he personally would accept the Ambassador’s, interpretation, but that it must be remembered that we were dealing with forty suspicious nations. He thought that if we used words, which were subject to a narrow technical interpretation, their suspicion would be increased. Mr. Stettinius asked what was the Ambassador’s language. Ambassador Gromyko stated that his language was just an explanation and was not a substitute for the draft.
Mr. Stettinius then informed Dr. Koo that Ambassador Gromyko, had given assurance that the Russian text had a broad meaning. He [Page 1382] thought we had gone as far as we could go, and proposed that Lord Halifax and he discuss this matter with Dr. Evatt. If Dr. Evatt asked any questions that they could not answer, they would telephone the Ambassador. Senator Vandenberg noted that as a practical matter, it was important to get the agreement of Dr. Evatt and his group because it would be impossible to get the votes of Committee II/2 otherwise. Lord Halifax added that we would not get those votes if we told them that we were limiting the powers of the General Assembly. Senator Vandenberg observed that it was a very belligerent group in Committee II/2.
Mr. Stettinius then adjourned the meeting and stated that he would notify the group later that evening of the results of his conversation with Dr. Evatt.