File No. 763.72119/1031

The Chargé in Switzerland ( Wilson ) to the Secretary of State

[Telegram]

2261. For Harrison from Anderson:

9. Most important interviews at Budapest and Vienna. Count Albert Apponyi was described to me at the Vienna Foreign Office as the broadest-minded aristocrat in the Dual Empire, the wise man of this age, and one whose opinions are the result of sifted and studied evidence based upon confirmed facts. Count Colloredo-Mannsfeld, Chief at the Foreign Office, who married Miss Iselin of New York, and his assistant, Count [omission] mentioned the remarkable accuracy of Count Apponyi’s predictions. I heard him say in the United States in 1910, “An outbreak would set the world on fire and in its complications may draw even the United States into its vortex.” That was published in his pamphlet in 1911 which in our Congressional Library is pamphlet “JX 1963 A7 Apponyi.” Many other statements interesting to-day are worth reading as showing the value of his counsel. His position in the Cabinet is Minister of Education for which he is exceptionally qualified by his universal knowledge and experience. He is 72 years but is not old. He is the [Page 479] most intimate friend of Count Czernin and consulted by him constantly, as well as by the leaders of the new party in Germany and knows their strength and intentions. He confirms my previous reports to you from German sources of the prepared reforms and change in constitution which must however be established by voluntary action of the people.

The first interview in Budapest lasted over two hours and after it he decided that we would both go to Vienna the next day where he would consult with Count Czernin who had just returned from his trip to Berlin and he would present me to Count Czernin. This I felt obliged to decline with regret telling him that my Government had given consent to my meeting Count Apponyi unofficially but I should not want to do more than my Government had knowledge of until I had their further approval. He said he would have more to say to me after seeing Count Czernin. In the interval between our first and second meeting I made notes of his sayings at the first interview and had him review them at the second meeting. They cover some six sheets and are all important but I will not cable here more than the important items and will send the rest through the pouch of the English Embassy unless requested by you to cable the remainder.

In Vienna he telephoned me at 10 a.m. the next morning that he was commanded to be in attendance at the Royal Closet that day but would see me at 4 p.m. You will notice that Emperor Charles met Count Czernin Friday and Count Apponyi was present, reported in the papers by Havas Agency.

The second interview was longer than the first and after he had been in consultation with His Majesty and Count Czernin. He says His Majesty pretending [is?] “the greatest pacifist” he knows. At this interview he also gave me a written statement over his own autograph which I will append later. The heads of the results of my interviews are as follows: There is no crisis in the Dual Empire now. That is passed. The people are calmed. They are depressed and grieved at the action of the United States in declaring war. He himself cannot understand it, as nothing is different now as between the United States and Austria-Hungary than at the time war was declared against Germany. Victory can now be obtained for the Allies on what can be called the Wilson policy. The Lloyd George unfounded optimism is either due to blind ignorance of existing conditions or a desire to mislead his own people. Nothing can be the result of his present policy but more butchery of the fighting forces. Count Apponyi is conservative in using facts and will not count upon a thing being done until it is done, so he uses the conditional in connection [Page 480] with the Russian treaty with the Central powers. He says that if that treaty is carried out it will release to Germany two million fighting men trained to their work. It will be at least one and a half years before America could put that number in the field. If they were ready now it would mean the transporting of 110,000 men every month with their supplies. If Lloyd George believes that excess in numbers of reenforcements will win the war the advantage will lie with the Central powers. He believes the advantage lies in superior efficiency but does not think this war will be won in battles.

The way the war can be stopped now and victory for the Allies, according to the Wilson policy, be secured is by a conference held secretly or openly consisting of one representative each of the following powers, Germany, Austria-Hungary, United States, England and France; Italy if insisted upon. Pending the deliberations of this conference nothing to be changed. No one to be committed to acceptance of any terms beforehand. A sort of meeting of respective counsel of litigants without prejudice. If they are not convinced that a settlement can be reached, that agreements can be affirmed guaranteed, that aims have not been misunderstood, the conferees disband and no harm is done. He is sure that good will result. President Wilson has said he is not warring against the German people. The German people will be the party of the German part to any agreement. He says, “Election to the German Reichstag rests upon the broadest franchise that exists throughout the world and is absolutely without corruption. Every male of the population here votes for his representative in the Reichstag.” The Reichstag is the voice of the people and the Kaiser will not resist. Whether the reforms proposed for enfranchisement in the Landtag are accomplished or not (and they will be) that body cannot affect the vote of the Reichstag in the slightest degree. The Reichstag is for peace. No Chancellor can exist now who has not the good will of the Reichstag. This has been proved lately.

A separate peace is positively impossible. This I have confirmed by others representing other parties in the Legislature as will be seen below. Count Apponyi says it would be an “infamy” worse than any that could be described if they should think of disintegration or separation from Germany. They will endure any amount of suffering even to the [fatal?] extreme. Regarding food supply he said I could see there was not plenty but that very limitation of consumption is conserving their supply sufficiently to last. The early and very deep snows that now cover Austria-Hungary are fertilizing and protecting the largest winter seed sowing that has ever been known.

[Page 481]

In regard to Károlyi he mentioned him as “my friend Károlyi,” said he differed from him somewhat in his views. Károlyi had only 60 votes of the Independent Party. He mentioned him without allusion from me and evidently thought I had seen Károlyi in Berne but I had not and told him so. Count Apponyi said if the present world-wide economic distress could by international cooperation be concentrated against one offending power, acceptance any international agreement could be made compulsory. He has long been the advocate of international concerted action but that is a subject now for future consideration. The following is the autograph statement he gave me:

I must insist on the following two facts:

1. Reduction of armaments, international arbitration and, in a general way, the setting up of an international machinery to prevent war is the official program of Austria-Hungary as stated by the Foreign Secretary Czernin in his speech lately delivered at Budapest; it has received the sanction of the Hungarian Parliament, it has been accepted by Germany, when the Chancellor (or the Foreign Secretary) declared himself in perfect sympathy with Czernin’s statement. On the other hand pacifists are denounced as enemies of their country and even legally prosecuted in France and in England.

2. The Central powers are always ready to accept a peace conference of representatives of the belligerents, without any previous acceptance of certain conditions of peace, simply to try how difficulties could be set aside in a spirit of mutual good will. It is France and England that decline even conversations of this unbinding nature.

Let me add to this that democratic reforms, or reforms of any kind, will always be rejected with scorn even by the most advanced parties in our countries, if they are brought to us on the point of the enemy’s sword. The natural evolution towards democracy in these countries is greatly discouraged by their being made part of the war program of our enemies. Albert Apponyi.

At the Vienna Bank-Verein, while I was there, Count Anton Apponyi, a nephew of Albert, came in as a customer of the bank and I was introduced to him by Mr. Drucker of the bank who is a friend and great admirer of Mr. Penfield. Count Apponyi knew of my interviews with his uncle and spoke of it before Mr. Drucker who became very much interested. He said he was in touch through Austria-Hungary connections with many important interests and thought while Count Apponyi’s statements could be relied upon as exactly true, I also ought to get the views of men of other parties. I told him I was merely a commercial man and not there as a representative of my Government or in any official capacity. He said, even so, he wanted to talk to me unofficially and he wished some of the misunderstandings that he thought had been wilfully spread [Page 482] abroad could be cleared up. He said 99 per cent of the people of Austria-Hungary were “antagonistic” to the Junker party of Germany, that the only adherents they had at all in the Dual Empire were men, who, on account of their capital, had been let in on financial deals due to profits possible because of the war. There was much more of value from him which I can write.

Count Anton Apponyi volunteered more information about Károlyi. Said he was a man of great wealth, culpably ambitious and “a dangerous fanatic,” he was once a strong friend of Count Tisza but tried to obstruct legislation in a way to further his own aims and ambition. Count Tisza opposed and destroyed his obstruction tactics in a way that Károlyi claimed was unconstitutional. They quarrelled, fught a duel and Károlyi lost many followers and friends. I will send more of Count Anton’s information on general matters by mail. He is as positive as his uncle that revolution, disintegration or separation from Germany will never be possible in the Dual Empire.

Mr. Drucker wanted me to meet one man, Dr. Julius Organdy, world-renowned as a publicist, one of leading lawyers in Vienna, an authority on political economy and a great philanthropist beloved by the poor. I thought as he was in touch with the common people his information pertaining to the position of the masses would be valuable. I met him with Mr. Drucker Saturday evening. He was emphatic as all others that there was no possibility of revolution or separation from Germany. Said 95 per cent of the Austro-Hungarian [apparent omission] were opposed to the Kast or [sic] Pan-German party of [apparent omission] and 100 per cent of the Hungarians; said that party long in a minority were dwindling and having no influence now with any authority in Germany. Confirms what Count Apponyi had said about election to the Reichstag, said the power of the Bundesrat had never been exercised in dissolving the Reichstag and the Kaiser did not control the Bundesrat without the cooperation of two other Kingdoms, members of the German Empire. He said the Landtag was unfairly enfranchised but would be reformed by a bill already drawn. He said the Kaiser is a changed man. There is a tendency to make a powerful commercial man the Prime Minister. He says he knows all about German politics and Government and if I will send a list of questions pertaining to the German political bodies through any Austro-Hungarian Legations he will answer them seriatim through the same medium.

My personal observations and further interviews I will write. I have called at the Legation and noted your cables. Will explain to Austrian Legation as instructed and proceed to London and wait your further instructions. I met with most courteous treatment throughout the trip.

Wilson