Foreign Relations of the United States, 1981–1988, Volume X, Eastern Europe

419. Telegram From the Embassy in Czechoslovakia to the Department of State¹

802/Depto 1052.

Prague, February 9, 1988, 1806Z

SUBJECT

• Deputy Secretary’s February 8 Meeting With President Husak.

1. Secret—Entire text.

Summary

2. During hour-long meeting February 8, Deputy Secretary and Czechoslovak President Husak discussed bilateral relations, glasnost and perestroika in Czechoslovakia, religious freedom and political persecution. Both sides expressed desire to improve relations and willingness to proceed with step-by-step process, and agreed that dialogue should cover all issues between two countries. Husak was neither particularly frail nor particularly fit, and was quick and pertinent in response and debate and clearly on top of his brief. End summary.

3. Deputy Secretary John C. Whitehead met February 8 from 3:30 to 4:30 p.m. local at Prague Castle with Czechoslovak President Gustav Husak. Husak accompanied by Foreign Minister Chnoupek, Presidency Chief of Staff Frantisek Salda, interpreter and notetaker. Deputy Secretary was accompanied by Ambassador Niemczyk and EUR DAS Tom Simons (notetaker).

Greetings From Senator Pell; Slovakia

4. The Deputy Secretary began the meeting by passing Husak a note from Senator Pell, reminding Husak that he was head of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.² Husak said he remembered Pell from Bratislava, and suggested he had advised Whitehead to visit there. Whitehead said Pell knew about his visit, and it had been a wonderful time. Husak said he was glad. Bratislava was his native town. Chnoupek was also from there. They were each from a different village of Bratislava. Whitehead said he had the impression everyone in the Czechoslovak Government was from Bratislava. Husak said only part of it. They adhered to the principle of federation, and the majority was Czech.

Bilateral Relations

5. Husak said he welcomed the Deputy Secretary most cordially. His visit was a good opportunity for us to get to know each other better and exchange views, on the path to improving relations.

6. Husak continued that when Ambassador Niemczyk had presented his credentials, he had said he would strive to improve relations step by step, and Husak had agreed. The trouble was he had heard the same thing from Ambassador Niemczyk’s three predecessors. The steps had come rather slowly, and he would like to see them come at a higher rate.

7. Whitehead had discussed a number of problems with his colleagues, Husak continued. He had heard that the Czechoslovak leadership, both political and state, desires improved relations with the United States in all fields. It avoids no questions, and it wishes to improve relations in the political, economic and cultural areas.

8. Husak said he believed there was a more favorable international atmosphere, in light of U.S.-Soviet talks, the signing of the Washington Treaty³ and another prospects. This was favorable for other relationships. Kohl had been to Prague the week before. Here too there were differences in world views and social systems, but they too had agreed to try to improve political, economic and cultural relations. This was the Czechoslovak approach to all bilateral relationships. He believed Whitehead’s visit would be conducive to better relations, or he hoped it would. He was sorry he had been unable to receive Whitehead the year before, because of other engagements, but that visit too had been a good step.

9. Husak asked if he could smoke. It was a weakness of his. Whitehead said it did not seem to have harmed either his health or his long life. Husak said he thought that was true. When he fell into the hands of his doctors they told him to limit smoking, but he had a neutrality pact with them.

10. The Deputy Secretary said Husak had been right to say the U. S. was seeking to improve relations with Czechoslovakia. We recognized that it was not just part of a Soviet empire, but deserves independent attention from the U.S. Husak said “of course.” Whitehead said we have been trying to develop relations step by step, as Husak had heard, and he thought the steps over the past year were bigger than in the past. Specific, tangible steps, and the most important had been establishment of processes of regular dialogue on all subjects. We had even come to the point where we could talk about our different views on human rights without the other side getting mad. Husak said this was not only possible but necessary. We must discuss all subjects if we are to understand each other. The Deputy Secretary said he had discussed the details with his friend the Foreign Minister and with others.

Reform in Czechoslovakia

11. The Deputy Secretary said he wished to take advantage of his meeting with Husak to ask his views on one or two important subjects. Husak nodded. Whitehead said he would like to ask him particularly what he thought about glasnost and perestroika, two new words in our vocabulary.

12. Husak said he agreed with and supported the idea, and the Czechoslovak side was introducing it in Czechoslovakia as well. Whitehead observed that it was sometimes said in the West that the Czechoslovaks were more cautious than Gorbachev. Husak said he did not know who was spreading that idea. He too had read that they were afraid, were conservative, were cautious. But that was not true, and there were facts to prove it.

13. He would give one example. Two years before, at the Seventeenth Congress of the CPCZ, there had been much open discussion about radical economic reform, about more consistent democratization, about more airing in public life. That was in the record. And it was being put in practice since that time. Of course there were major problems. No political and economic system could be changed overnight. But they had a concept, and it was being put into practice.

14. The Deputy Secretary asked what changes Husak would like to see over the next five years, if he could have what he wanted.

15. Husak replied that he would hope to see radical or even revolutionary economic reform developing successfully. As to the second area, the political field, Whitehead had used the Russian words glasnost and perestroika; he (Husak) hoped they would penetrate every sphere of life. They had recently had a nationwide meeting of the National Front. This was the body that included the five political parties, the major social organizations, in fact the whole adult population. There they had elaborated these ideas. To make them work, they had to talk with the people, confront views, eliminate mistakes—and there had been quite a few. He would like to see that become part of everyday life. The Czechoslovak side gave wholehearted support to the ideas of Gorbachev, and not just his; some of those ideas had appeared at other times in history.

16. The Deputy Secretary said that sounded to him like a democracy, and asked if that was what Husak meant.

17. Husak said he would say rather “enhancement of democracy.” Czechoslovakia had a deep democratic tradition. Partly this went back to Austro-Hungarian times, partly to the period between the two world wars. The various stages had left roots. Of course there was a time of harsh centralization, when political mistakes were made. These had been overcome gradually, though not as fast as they had hoped, and they would work further and more intensively on it.

Religious Freedom

18. The Deputy Secretary said there was a feeling in the U.S. that Czechoslovakia suppresses the church and religion. He asked Husak to comment.

19. Husak said he knew the view was widespread in the West, and it was being publicized in an organized way. Czechoslovakia had eighteen legally recognized denominations. Of these seventeen elected their representatives within the country. But the Roman Catholic Church is the largest, and must always discuss nominations for high posts with the Vatican. This involves the Czechoslovak state.

20. Some years ago, Husak went on, he had spoken to Casaroli, a prominent Vatican personality, and told him that Czechoslovakia was interested in good relations with the Vatican, in solving all problems. He had suggested letting the representatives of the churches be believers, but loyal to the state. Casaroli had said this approach was reflected in Canon Law, and had quoted some for Husak. So solution was theoretically possible. In practice, however, one side likes some people and the other side likes other people.

21. There had been talks recently with a Vatican delegation in Prague, Husak went on. The Czechoslovak side had instructed its delegation to seek compromise as much as possible. But their people thought that the Vatican representatives’ position was very tough. So the best they could do was agree to continue talks a few weeks from now in Rome.

22. He hoped for a compromise, Husak said. It was not pleasant for them to see a number of sees vacant. The common people had freedom of religion. The churches were open, and they were freely attended.

23. However, Husak went on, historically the church had sometimes played a negative role in these lands, and this gave rise to “negative moods.” The re-Catholicization campaign beginning in the sixteenth century had been used for Germanization in the Czech lands and Magyarization in Slovakia. Because of that, after World War I there was a strong reaction against the Vatican. Both Masaryk and Benes had had similar problems. To be brief, there had been attempts to use the thinking of believers for political goals, and every regime defended itself against that.

24. Husak said he had read that in the United States there was greater tolerance of religion. This resulted from historic development. Whereas in Czechoslovakia there had been struggles, even religious wars. Now it was trying to overcome this past, and that was only possible through compromise. Initially they had worked with Cardinal Tomasek, whom Whitehead had seen, he had become first Archbishop and then Cardinal. Now there were attempts to use the old man for militant causes, and that did not help. What was needed was mutual tolerance between the state and extremist forces in the church.

25. The Deputy Secretary said Husak was right to say we had a more tolerant attitude toward the church. As in Czechoslovakia, the Catholic Church was the largest denomination in the U.S. Our government did not interfere with the election of bishops, with approval of priests, with the number of schools and seminaries. It had a hands-off policy; the church was completely independent of the state. The result had been pretty good over the years. The church often disagreed with the government on particular policies. Priests preach different ideas from the government’s to their flocks.

26. Husak noted that the U.S. had even imprisoned some. Whitehead said this had not happened often, and moreover we were governed by laws. Priests who broke the law were not protected against the law, which was the ultimate decision-maker. If a law was passed, it had to be abided by. This system had worked well, yet the church was free.

27. Husak replied that all issues in religion had a historic background. In Whitehead’s country it was as he described; in Czechoslovakia it was different. He would give one detail from Slovakia. Senator Pell might know something about it. Hitler had founded the so-called Slovak state, and Roman Catholics had held all the important posts in it. It was a sort of fascism in Slovak colors. The Slovak national uprising had been anti-fascist, directed against it. When the rebels had been driven into the mountains—and that had included both him and U.S. officers Husak said—President Tiso, a priest, had held a solemn divine service to celebrate victory over the bandits. And the SS general commanding the German troops, Hoeffler, had played the organ. It might sound comic, but it illustrated a serious problem.

28. Such a background could not be simply eliminated from the minds of the people, Husak went on. Former Austrian President Kirschschlaeger, when he was President, had also spoken strongly to Husak about freedom of the Roman Catholic Church. He had told Kirschschlaeger what he had just told Whitehead: There was freedom for religion, but not for its misuse against the people. He had told Kirschschlaeger the same story, though he did not know if the latter had accepted the conclusion. But history was important. The Czechoslovak side was trying to overcome it, to pursue tolerance, but extremists saw religion as a major political force and were trying to misuse it.

29. The state had made serious mistakes vis-a-vis the church, in the 1950’s, Husak went on. He had been in prison with a number of Roman Catholic bishops. In fact he had shared a cell with one. They had plenty of time and nothing to do so the bishop had tried to convince him of the truth of the Roman Catholic faith, and he had tried to convince the bishop of the truth of his materialistic, scientific world view. They had the time, but neither had convinced the other.

30. Whitehead observed that probably each had made a contribution in his own way. Husak said that was certainly so. He had been born in a Catholic environment, knew the pros and cons, and had developed into an atheist. He knew the part religion played in the lives of believers, and respected it. The state put tremendous sums into the repair of churches and the payment of priests. Only the head of his office knew what they spent on St. Veit Cathedral, but it was Tomasek who held meetings there.

31. The Deputy Secretary asked if Husak saw communism and religion as diametrically opposed, or believed they could live in peace in Czechoslovakia. Husak said he was convinced they had to live together. It was not possible to bring all views into one line. Communists respected religious feelings. But they could not allow their misuse for political purposes. Their side might not be entirely right on all issues. Cooperation was needed. As Casaroli had put it, they needed confidence and loyalty. Whitehead should try to get an objective view of the situation in Czechoslovakia. Of all the members of the party leadership, only Strougal had been born an atheist. The rest had been born in religious families, and friends and relatives had influence. They did not want a fight.

Repression of Political Dissent

32. Whitehead said he had another question. People in the West said the Czechoslovak Government harshly repressed people who disagreed with it, that dissent, disagreement and dialogue were not permitted, that people were jailed or otherwise repressed if they disagreed publicly. He asked Husak to enlighten him on this question.

33. Husak said there had been such periods, in the 1950’s. There had been harsh and even unjust actions taken against other opinions. That had been gradually eliminated. During the time he had been in top-level posts, political or state, there had been only certain minor cases of repression of such people, if they broke the law. To his knowledge there were no such cases at present. People could have dissenting views, but they had to comply with the law. But hostile propaganda blew up every tiny case.

34. Husak said he wished to give an example. A group in Czechoslovakia had declared it was going to hold a demonstration against repression in Romania. There had been no such demonstration. It had not been prohibited; it had simply not taken place, though there had been such demonstrations in other countries. But the Western press reported that twenty people in Prague had been on hunger strike, in their apartments and kitchens with full refrigerators. Normally this would be material for a humor magazine, but it was reported as news. Among the demonstrators was the writer Havel, who had demonstrated in his kitchen full of food. It was not possible to believe everything in the mass media.

35. The Deputy Secretary said our own government was constantly criticized in them. Husak said that was true everywhere. Whitehead said that went for all top officials. Husak said he knew; he had held such posts for a long time. Whitehead said we had found the best protection was the spotlight of the truth. We allowed hundreds and thousands of newspapers, good stories and bad stories, and in the end it worked. The present administration had been one of those most criticized, but it had been reelected by a record majority. In our country anyone could organize and speak, and the constitution prevailed, and we stayed in a reasonably orderly pattern.

Systemic Change

36. Husak said he knew something of the American system, and those in Western Europe. He had studied them, and followed them since. Whitehead for his part knew the Czechoslovak side’s system, though, Husak said, he was not sure in what depth. There were shortcomings everywhere. Systems could not stagnate, and one had to be aware not only of the positive but also of the negative. They wanted to improve theirs. Perhaps they were not doing so with enough speed, but the tendency was there.

37. The Deputy Secretary said he thought both worlds were striving to improve. The history of the world was that systems which became self-satisfied became stagnant and died.

[Omission in the original.] economic and state life. Their side noticed its weaknesses, especially in the economy. It had lost some time in the scientific and technological fields. But for some years it had been gathering strength for programs to catch up in technological and production levels with the U.S., with Japan, with Western Europe. The same applied to politics, particularly with respect to mass organizations like the trade unions. In the statutes there was always freedom for every member to express opinions; there were always provisions for secret election of officials. Nevertheless there was stagnation. We need to talk with them constantly so that they will truly represent all the workers, all the people, Husak said. The same was true of all the political parties, the youth organizations. We need to view sharply how to introduce these things into life. We provide for public control and discussion, but needed to improve them.

39. The Deputy Secretary commented that our capitalist system had undergone a tremendous change in the 1930’s. It had adopted many socialist features, and substantially improved the life of the average worker. We call it capitalism, but perhaps it is really a capitalist-socialist system. He had the impression that the reverse was beginning to happen in Husak’s system. Because it was not staying modern it was perhaps adapting, just as ours had adapted fifty years ago. He suspected Husak would continue to call it socialist, though in fact it was a socialist-capitalist system. Perhaps in the end we would have the same system under different names.

40. Husak said they would need at least an evening to discuss that. Their side was learning from all the world what was good, and not just in the area of technology. Any reasonable person would do that. He knew that the U.S. and other capitalist states granted certain social rights. But scientific-technological development also led to throwing millions on the street, to unemployment. They wanted to avoid that. Whitehead said that discussion would probably take a whole night.

41. The Deputy Secretary thanked Husak for his time. Husak expressed his thanks for the visit. His wish was that Whitehead’s visit to Czechoslovakia might contribute to the improvement of relations. He would be pleased that talks would continue, whatever the differences, if they produced concrete conclusions. Whitehead said it was good to be able to talk about differences, as they had that day.

Czechoslovak Commitment to Peace

42. Husak said people should study Czechoslovakia, the good and the bad, and draw their own conclusions. He valued Whitehead’s visits to see what Eastern Europe and Czechoslovakia were like. The people there were neither angels nor devils. They wanted to live in peace. The U.S. Government and President Reagan had contributed to a major step in disarmament. He highly valued the treaty signed in December. He wanted that tendency to continue. He was pleased that the Foreign Ministers would be meeting. It was a great chance for the world.

43. The Deputy Secretary said there was much to be accomplished over the next twelve months, and the U.S. side would do its best.

44. Husak said he was glad the Deputy Secretary had come. Czechoslovakia lived on the borderline between the two pacts. Its people read about modern weapons, nuclear weapons, and asked what future there was for their children. The U.S. was more distant. So perhaps the average American did not ask that question. But Czechoslovakia was on the border. It had been in all Europe’s wars. He himself had been in both world wars, and did not want a third. Whitehead said a third would leave no one immune. Husak said that was why he valued the step President Reagan and General Secretary Gorbachev had taken in December.

Niemczyk

1. Source: Department of State, Records from Ambassador Thomas W. Simons, Jr., Lot 03 D 256, Chron February 1988. Secret; Immediate; Exdis.
2. Claiborne Pell (D–Rhode Island).
3. Reference is to the INF Treaty, which Reagan and Gorbachev signed in Washington on December 8, 1987.