320. Memorandum of Conversation1
SUBJECT
- The Vice President’s Meeting with the Hungarian Deputy Prime Minister Jozsef Marjai
PARTICIPANTS
- The Vice President
- H. Allen Holmes, Department of State
- Lawrence Brady, Department of Commerce
- Nancy Bearg Dyke, Office of the Vice President
- Paula Dobriansky, NSC (Notetaker)
- Deputy Prime Minister Jozsef Marjai
- Hungarian Ambassador to the United States Janos Petran
- Former Ambassador to the U.S. Ferenc Esztergalyos
Vice President Bush welcomed Hungarian Deputy Prime Minister Jozsef Marjai. In response, the Deputy Prime Minister stated that he was glad this meeting could be arranged. He then conveyed best wishes from the Hungarian Government and its people and mentioned that his visit was an expression of Hungary’s good intentions—to broaden its relations with the United States.
Vice President Bush stated that he had heard the Deputy Prime Minister had had a very good discussion with Secretary of State Haig.
Deputy Prime Minister Marjai asserted that their conversation was quite productive.
The Vice President also commented that he was very pleased with the International Monetary Fund’s efforts and results. He contended that Hungary’s IMF membership signifies closer ties with the United States and mentioned that its admission was not solely attributable to the U.S. Government’s efforts.
The Deputy Prime Minister stated that Hungary knows its IMF application was approved wholeheartedly by the U.S. Government.
In response, the Vice President maintained that the application stood on its own merits.
Deputy Prime Minister Marjai contended that this event was quite significant. He was very pleased that there were no abstentions and no votes against Hungary’s IMF application. He assured the Vice [Page 1002] President that Hungary would be a fair, reliable and active member of the IMF.
At this time, the Vice President mentioned that Hungary’s economy is doing very well in spite of the impact of high U.S. interest rates.
The Deputy Prime Minister replied that Hungary is actually suffering from these circumstances and hopes that this period of high interest rates changes soon.
The Vice President then gave an account of how on his trip to China,2 he had been surprised that the Chinese were unaware that the United States Government pursues a policy aimed at reducing the high interest rates. Instead, the Chinese believe that the United States actually has a high interest rate policy. The Vice President proceeded to ask what is the Deputy Prime Minister’s opinion with regard to Poland. Specifically, he inquired if the Deputy Prime Minister envisioned any positive changes taking place. He also commented that the Polish issue has high domestic visibility and that many Americans have a keen interest in Polish developments.
In response, Deputy Prime Minister Marjai maintained that Poland is a serious problem. Hungary has not invested money in Poland and Poland is also not one of Hungary’s primary trading partners. However, like the United States, all Hungarians know that Poland is a very significant member of Europe and even beyond Europe. It is of fundamental interest to all. The Deputy Prime Minister posited that there can be compromise and harmony between the Polish people and their government. He contended that the economy can perform well. He further commented that he does not envision full agreement, but progress is in sight. The Deputy Prime Minister mentioned he is very optimistic about future Polish developments.
He stated that the problems in Poland did not start in August 1980,3 but rather in 1956. At that time, Poland had an opportunity to choose the right path. The Polish Prime Minister Gomulka came to power with broad support. He could have, given his power, maximized upon the various opportunities at the time—but he did not. The Deputy Prime Minister said that he hopes the Poles have learned from the past. He maintained that General Jaruzelski is a good patriot, a talented and a very progressive man. According to the Deputy Prime Minister, when Jaruzelski was Minister of Defense, he was a very striking figure. Presently, he needs to broaden his power base by enlisting [Page 1003] the support of competent Polish civilian leaders. Certain conditions must be afforded to him to enable him to take the necessary progressive measures.
The Vice President interceded by stating that Prime Minister Jaruzelski needs to make concessions. Specifically, Walesa must be released from jail. The U.S. public sentiment on this issue is unequivocal. The Polish Government’s actions have set back U.S.-Polish relations.
The Hungarian Deputy Prime Minister agreed with the Vice President that concessions are necessary indeed. He asserted that it is not possible to govern without or against the people. However, he said, this accommodation cannot be tied to certain personalities, such as Walesa. He said that on his recent visit to West Germany he had a conversation with an influential capitalist official. He was surprised by how this official depicted Walesa—he compared Walesa to an “individual” who stood out in German history. To the Deputy Prime Minister this was a dramatic analogy.
The Vice President retorted that he had never heard the same comparison expressed in this country.
Deputy Prime Minister Marjai replied that the man he was speaking of cannot be charged with any biases; except that he does not endorse trade unions. He continued to say that Hungary’s trade unions have contacted Walesa in the past and they do not have a very good opinion of him.
The Vice President emphasized that in the United States, Walesa is identified with and symbolizes such values as freedom and liberty. For these reasons he has captured the attention of the American populace. Hence, for us to improve relations with Poland, something has to change. There is a need for some significant signs of improvement. Specifically, the Vice President referred again to Walesa’s release from jail. He also indicated that the President feels very strongly about Walesa’s release.
The Deputy Prime Minister stated that independent and free trade unions are necessary. Without them, industry would not be able to function. He reasserted that the issue of Walesa’s release from jail should be treated separately.
Vice President Bush then inquired what are the prospects for Walesa’s release.
The Deputy Prime Minister answered it is not certain. He continued to say that Hungarians have affection for the Polish people as both are free spirits. In fact, he posited that there are even some similarities between both of them. Specifically, he stated, just as the Hungarians, the Poles know how to work. He cited that currently there are several thousand Poles in Hungary. They are highly valued for the exceptional [Page 1004] quality of their labor. The Deputy Prime Minister stated that he encourages the free movement between peoples.
At this time, the Vice President emphasized that visits like this are extremely useful. He mentioned that during his stint at the United Nations4 he heard the United States being frequently attacked as an imperialistic country. He also cited another misconception by stating that many Americans view Hungary solely as a Bloc member and have lost sight of its individuality. Very often the distinctions among all the East European countries are overlooked.
The Hungarian Deputy Prime Minister agreed and expressed the hope that more high level visits take place in the future. Specifically, he stated that the Hungarian Government would welcome, when appropriate, an official visit to Budapest.
The Vice President concluded the meeting by stating that he was very pleased to have met with Deputy Prime Minister Marjai.
- Source: Reagan Library, Paula J. Dobriansky Files, Chronological File, Chron 05/01/1982–05/22/1982; NLR–145–8–27–3–0. Confidential. The meeting took place in the Vice President’s office at the White House.↩
- Bush was in China May 5–9. Documentation related to his visit is scheduled for publication in Foreign Relations, 1981–1988, vol. XXVIII, China, 1981–1983.↩
- See footnote 5, Document 4.↩
- Bush served as Ambassador to the United Nations March 1971–January 1973.↩