320. Memorandum of Conversation1
SUBJECT
- Summary of the President’s Meeting with Katherine Keough and Louisa Kennedy
PARTICIPANTS
- President Jimmy Carter
- Captain Gary Sick, NSC Staff Member (notetaker)
- Katherine Keough
- Louisa Kennedy
The President opened the meeting by remarking about how wonderful Richard Queen looked and how excited he was to be back.2 Both visitors agreed that he was a wonderful young man. Unfortunately, his personal experience as a hostage was limited and may not be typical of the others.
The President agreed that the experience of each hostage may be unique. Queen was obsessed with the different attitudes of the different militants. Some he despised. Others were much better.
Katherine Keough said they had requested the meeting to assure the President of their support. Although some members of their family organization occasionally stray off—as was unfortunately the case at the Republican National Convention where some members “slipped through our fingers”3—the President could be assured that he has 53 hostage families behind him. That emphatically includes Richard Queen and his family who lead them all in support.
The President said that was good to hear. He complimented the two visitors on their remarkable diplomacy and courage. If this turns into a partisan issue, it will detract from the overwhelming commitment of the American people. The President had seen Secretary of State Muskie and had told him to talk to you (the visitors) on a confidential basis about a move which might be desirable in relation to the new [Page 860] Iranian Majlis. There were some problems involved, but we could probably find ways for some Americans to go to Tehran. Even Beheshti had referred to the need to deal with the U.S. “people” rather than the government. If this could be evoked by private citizens, members of Congress, or even members of FLAG, it might dramatize the hostage problem to the Majlis. The President emphasized that he was not trying to impose an idea on them, but he thought they should discuss the idea with Secretary Muskie.
Katherine Keough noted there are things they could do which the government cannot, and vice versa. They wanted to try and be more in synch with policy in order to protect you (the President) and to help the families. They thought there was a possible opening for some movement after the release of Richard Queen to his parents.
The President agreed and noted that even Beheshti had repeated this formulation.
Katherine Keough thought this might offer the possibility of a role for them. However, she was leery about the families going to Tehran where they were extremely vulnerable to being run through cemeteries, having crutches waved at them and the like. However, that may be necessary.
The President said he was thinking more toward a family visit to the UN to meet with the Iranian UN Representative, or perhaps to Switzerland for a meeting with some Iranians.
Louisa Kennedy said she had seen Farhang (the former UN Representative) in New York on June 20. He had told her he was going back to teach in Iran, but it was evident that he is going back to try to help Bani-Sadr. She told him that if the families can be helpful at some point or if the Iranians develop some scenario utilizing the families—which would have to be highly organized—we could possibly be helpful.
The President said if there was a meeting in Switzerland, then a judgment would be required whether it should be secret or whether it should be done with fanfare. What is probably not possible is to deal with representatives of Ghotbzadeh or Bani-Sadr. It should preferably be a representative of Beheshti or the Majlis, with the Iranian leaders guiding the operation with the help of the Swiss or perhaps Austrian governments. The U.S., of course, should avoid direct association with such a move.
Katherine Keough opined that the Iranians would probably prefer doing it publicly. This would provide an opportunity for the families to be seen pleading for the release of their sons, etc.
The President added “because Jimmy Carter could not do it” (i.e. the public line which the families would take in their plea). He asked Gary Sick to follow up on his note to Secretary Muskie. The FLAG [Page 861] officials should sit down with the Secretary. They should plan to by-pass Bani-Sadr, Ghotbzadeh and the U.S. Government. The sooner the better. The Iranians seem to be on the verge of choosing a Prime Minister.
Katherine Keough said she would rather not rush. It would be worth waiting a bit to see if the new Prime Minister lasts.
Gary Sick noted that the end of Ramadan may provide an appropriate moment for initiative.
The President observed that Khomeini appeared to knock down anyone who sticks his head up in Iran. He recently criticized Beheshti and the clerics. Bani-Sadr and Ghotbzadeh were not aware that Richard Queen was going to be released until they were asked to arrange transportation.
Katherine Keough mentioned that the families had recently written a letter to Ahmad Khomeini on a person-to-person basis when there appeared to be a chance that he might become the Prime Minister. The letter is being carried to Tehran with Professor Ricks who is presently on his way.
The President said that if they saw some positive sign or an opportunity, they should call him directly.
Katherine Keough said one final point they wished to make was to propose the establishment of an international commission to deal with questions such as the sanctity of embassies, the inviolability of diplomatic immunity and the like, perhaps under the auspices of the UN.
The President said we would certainly join such a commission.
Katherine Keough said she hoped, if such a commission were formed, that the leadership of FLAG would be considered for membership in the U.S. delegation.
The President asked how the families of the hostages get along among themselves.
Katherine Keough joked that they fight. There is a continuing problem of those outside Washington vs. those inside. When those from other locations are brought in, they have unrealistically high expectations about what is known and what can be done. When their expectations are not realized, they are frustrated and tend to think that the government is doing nothing. By the time a meeting is over, they usually go away with a positive attitude which lasts 2–4 weeks before frustrations again begin to mount. Seventeen families were represented in the meeting with Richard Queen.
Louisa Kennedy added that there was flak from those who were not there. It had been hard to arrange quickly for everyone. Richard Queen plans to call all the families.
The President said that it was obvious that Queen was weak. Even though he was quite animated and excited during his hour visit with [Page 862] the President,4 he showed signs of physical problems. He noted that the State Department representative who had accompanied him (Sheldon Krys) had been extremely solicitous and anxious that Queen not get over tired.
Katherine Keough said that she wished to put in a word for Krys as a great man who had been extraordinary in his help to the hostage families. She could not say enough good about him. That was also true of other State Department representatives—Peter Constable, Henry Precht, and others—who were competent, hard working and sensitive to their problems. She was not a State Department wife, but she had come to have enormous respect for them. The President was well served by people such as Krys, whom she would term an exceptional bureaucrat.
The President had noted that, when he offered the Queens White House tickets to the Kennedy Center, Krys had stressed the need for Richard to rest.
- Source: Carter Library, National Security Affairs, Brzezinski Material, Subject File, Box 38, MemCons President 7/80. Confidential. Drafted by Sick. The meeting took place in the Oval Office at the White House.↩
- See Document 317.↩
- According to Brzezinski, Keough and Kennedy were “embarrassed by the independent foray of several of the hostage wives to the Republican Convention.” (Memorandum from Brzezinski to Carter, July 22; Carter Library, National Security Affairs, Staff Material, Middle East File, Box 119, Trips/Visits File, 7/23/80 Hostage Wives Kennedy and Keough Meeting with the President)↩
- Carter met with Queen on July 19 from 10:59 until 11:50 a.m. No other record of the meeting has been found. (Carter Library, President’s Daily Diary)↩