387. Memorandum of Conversation1
SUBJECT
- Summary of the President’s Meeting with Egyptian Foreign Minister Kamal Hassan Ali and Israeli Interior Minister Joseph Burg
PARTICIPANTS
- President Jimmy Carter
- Vice President Walter F. Mondale
- Secretary of State Edmund Muskie
- Ambassador Sol Linowitz, Personal Representative of the President for the West Bank, Gaza and the Autonomy Negotiations
- Warren Christopher, Deputy Secretary of State
- Harold Saunders, Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern and South Asian Affairs
- Robert Hunter, National Security Council Staff Member (notetaker)
- Egyptian Foreign Minister Kamal Hassan Ali
- Israeli Interior Minister Joseph Burg
(The President met briefly with Minister Ali and Dr. Brzezinski in the Oval Office from 4:15–4:21;2 after the Cabinet Room meeting with Minister Burg in the Oval Office from 4:35 to about 4:40).3
The President began by noting that West German Foreign Minister Genscher had just been here, following Chancellor Schmidt’s talks in Moscow. Genscher is going back to Bonn tonight, for a cabinet meeting tomorrow. This is a difficult travel schedule, and Genscher is not well.
Deputy Secretary Christopher said that Genscher has a heart problem.
Minister Burg said that Genscher has had to cut down on his food and his weight.
The President said that Genscher had spent three months recuperating last year.
[Page 1302]Minister Burg said that his color looked better.
The President said that Genscher has cut his weight back.
Deputy Secretary Christopher said that Genscher’s colleagues had urged him not to go to Japan (for the Ohira funeral).4
The President joked that maybe he should have said “see you in Japan!” His (the President’s) hope is that without further delay we can restart the autonomy negotiations. He asked Minister Ali to relate this to President Sadat. They should start without preconditions, with a firm commitment of both parties to negotiate under the Camp David Accords. It is his belief that any act by either side to disturb the talks would be. . . . (Secretary Muskie entered at this point).
Secretary Muskie said that Minister Burg has the world’s best collection of stories.
Minister Burg said that it is one of his minor prides!
The President continued that his hope is that there will be no preconditions in restarting the negotiations. What concerns there are about future interruptions in the talks would be lessened by the fact of the talks itself. If Israel and Egypt are in talks, they would be less likely to take particular acts, and there would be more confidence. His hope is that the talks will restart with no further delay. If in the next few weeks, or perhaps in September, there are developments that cause one side or the other to withdraw, that problem can be faced then. He believes we can make progress. The history has been surprisingly good through the peace treaty. Both nations have concerns, but the talks can be successful. He has asked Minister Ali to convey this to President Sadat.
Ambassador Linowitz said that they had had a very fruitful three hours today, mostly clearing the air. The talks5 had been frank. Minister Ali had raised three issues: Jerusalem and the Knesset committee action; settlements; and confidence building measures on the West Bank, which are a cause of agitation. Minister Burg’s concerns had included articles in the Egyptian press making unwelcome statements about Begin, plus Sadat’s suspending the talks without conferring. The talks this morning were very helpful and beneficial. Afterwards, he thought that we could get the talks resumed. Minister Ali needs to consult with Cairo; Minister Burg is ready to start. After Minister Ali conveys his views to Cairo, he (Ambassador Linowitz) hopes that we can meet tomorrow morning and indicate that the talks will resume.
Minister Burg said he was prepared to say this.
Minister Ali said he was not.
[Page 1303]Ambassador Linowitz said that Minister Ali could say what his concerns are.
Minister Ali said that he had done so.
The President said that this was adequate, and he hopes that Minister Ali will relay to Sadat his (the President’s) hope that the talks can be restarted. We have all worked hard. If something should happen that could stop the talks again, it would be better if the talks were actually going on.
Minister Burg said that he would follow the President’s line, which is reasonable. Quoting what the President had said in Venice, it was best to work for an ideal. Therefore, Israel is ready to restart the talks.
The President said he was gratified that Minister Burg saw it that way, and that he (Minister Burg) had noted what he (the President) had said in Venice!
Minister Burg quoted former Prime Minister Macmillan,6 saying that a statesman is a politician when he is abroad.
Ambassador Linowitz said that, if we can—after Minister Ali talks with Sadat—agree to restart the talks, we can get them structured, to lay out a plan for the next several months, to proceed in a businesslike way. The groundwork is laid, and now we wait for agreement.
The President said good. We will do all that we can to help. If either Sadat or Begin have a problem, they should call him (the President) directly. He had had a good report from Minister Burg on how the Prime Minister is feeling.
Minister Burg said that Prime Minister Begin is active despite his illness—and so he is also angry about what happened in New York (i.e. at the UN)! (laughter)
Secretary Muskie joked that we are helping to restore the Prime Minister’s health!
Minister Burg said that this is a way of judging his (Begin’s) health!
The President said it was gratifying to know that Begin is recovering. Will Yadin serve as acting Prime Minister for the next few weeks?
Minister Burg said sure—and he (Yadin) will also be defense minister.
The President asked if this had happened before.
Minister Burg said yes. It was part of the bargain three years ago. Yadin was the head of a strong faction. Then this deal was worked out. Now, it is continued out of propriety.
[Page 1304]The President asked whether Yadin had been able to see Egyptian antiquities.
Minister Ali said yes.
The President said that Yadin had asked him (the President) to arrange it.
Minister Burg said that Yadin had been to Memphis, and shown a strong interest in it.
The President said that he had asked Yadin if he (the President) could help arrange such a trip to Egypt. Yadin had said he would like to go. He (the President) had said that this would be the first thing he would raise with Sadat—that Yadin should go to Egypt and see its antiquities. Sadat said he would invite Yadin personally.
Minister Burg said that he was in Egypt 40 years ago, travelling from Geneva to Palestine via Lisbon and Africa. The trip took four and a half months.
The President said that people forget what has been done in the past two years. He does not want us to move backwards with disagreement or failure. If we continue to work we can succeed.
Minister Burg said that too much has been invested to permit failure.
The President agreed.
Secretary Muskie asked whether the Egyptians had removed all the artifacts before Aswan was flooded.
Minister Ali said yes.
Secretary Muskie asked if this was all of them.
Minister Ali said that it was all. They had teams that went throughout the valley to see whether there were other artifacts. They succeeded in digging out the ancient buildings.
The President said that it was a mammoth job in raising the sites above the water.
Minister Ali said that the biggest was Abu Simbel; it was more than 20,000 tons of stone.
The President said that autonomy should be easy in comparison (laughter).
Secretary Muskie said maybe we should build a new pyramid.
The President said he was very glad that the discussions have got so far. Minister Ali would talk to Sadat tomorrow. Does he have to wait? What time is it in Cairo?
Minister Ali said that sometimes Sadat goes out and comes in late.
The President asked whether Sadat goes to bed late. Minister Ali could tell Sadat that he (the President) considered this important enough to call him (Sadat) tonight.
[Page 1305]Minister Ali said that by 9:30 a.m. here tomorrow he could report on his call.
The President said that he would have gone to California by then.
Secretary Muskie asked why the President was going to California.
The President said he was addressing the National Education Association convention.
Secretary Muskie said that that was non-political!
The President said absolutely!
Minister Burg said that the reasons were great.
The President said that the political reasons were great!
Ambassador Linowitz asked Minister Ali whether he (Minister Ali) could call Sadat now.
Minister Ali said he would try.
Ambassador Linowitz asked whether a call could be put in now.
The President said that a call could be placed from the White House.
Ambassador Linowitz asked Minister Ali if he would like to do it.
The President asked Minister Ali if he would like the call placed.
Minister Ali said all right, he would call now.
The President asked Mr. Hunter to place the call to Cairo for Minister Ali.
Ambassador Linowitz said let’s do it.
(The meeting ended at 4:35 p.m.).
- Source: Carter Library, Brzezinski Donated Material, Subject File, Box 37, Serial Xs—(5/80–6/80). Secret. The meeting took place in the Cabinet Room.↩
- In their meeting, Ali passed along to Carter a message from Sadat that the Egyptian President would “stand by” the message delivered by Mubarak, but “the unfortunate move by the Knesset on Jerusalem means that we have to concentrate on the measures that impede the peace process.” In response, Carter asked Ali to tell Sadat that the situation “would be worse” if the talks did not “start now.” Carter continued: “Israel is less likely to do something negative if the talks are going on than if they have been halted. My [Carter’s] preference is to start the talks right away without any delay and without any preconditions.” A copy of the memorandum of conversation of this meeting is in the Carter Library, National Security Affairs, Brzezinski Material, Subject File, Box 38, Memcons: President, 7/80.↩
- A memorandum of conversation of this meeting has not been found.↩
- Prime Minister Ohira died from a heart attack on June 12, 1980.↩
- See Document 388.↩
- Harold Macmillan, British Prime Minister from 1957 until 1963.↩