Foreign Relations of the United States, 1977–1980, Volume IX, Arab-Israeli Dispute, August 1978–December 1980, Second, Revised Edition

141. Transcript of a Telephone Conversation Between President Carter and Israeli Prime Minister Begin¹

Washington, November 21, 1978

SUBJECT

• Telephone Conversation between President Carter and Prime Minister Begin, November 21, 1978

President Carter: Good morning.

Prime Minister Begin: Good afternoon or good morning to you.

President Carter: I hope you had a nice...

Prime Minister Begin: Today our Cabinet votes² on a tremendous issue—namely, that we are prepared to sign the peace treaty with Egypt, if Egypt is prepared to do so. In other words, we give up our reservations.

President Carter: Mr. Prime Minister, that is very good news. We are very pleased to hear it.

Prime Minister Begin: Yes, sir.

President Carter: We will encourage President Sadat as we have in the past to accept the treaty text without change.

Prime Minister Begin: The text alone.

President Carter: I understand and we will also encourage him to not insist upon any change in Article VI of the treaty. I think you know that there will still remain one outstanding issue that needs to be resolved and that is the commitment by the parties to negotiate on the West Bank and Gaza.

Prime Minister Begin: This is what I want to explain. We also decided that the latest proposal by Secretary Vance³ and agreed by Egypt are inconsistent with the Camp David Agreements. As far as the negotiations about the autonomy, we have decided that we want after the signing and ratification of the peace treaty with Egypt to start negotiations in order to reach an agreement on Judea, Samaria and Gaza in accordance with the Camp David agreement. What we did not accept is a timetable. We cannot agree. If you agree, Mr. President, I will tell you something. It is very bad for us in order to really justify this timetable. We cannot accept. Yesterday was the horrible terrorist attack⁴ of which your spokesman, Mr. President, apologized to us. We are grateful. But we are aware that there are people who want to build on the bodies of the Israeli people, they want only the destruction of the Israeli race. And this is why we cannot go. Of course, nobody can force it upon us. We want an early agreement, a real agreement. Therefore, we cannot accept the timetable. There was not a timetable. As far as this goes, we are prepared to say that in three weeks or five weeks, that doesn’t matter, after the signing and the ratification of the peace treaty, we are prepared to start the negotiations with Egypt. What we cannot accept is a timetable for the elections, for finishing the negotiations. There are many problems to arrange after the timetable with Egypt. We want to find out if Egypt intends to start. After a while, the negotiations with Egypt alone or with Jordan should take place. We should sit around the table and negotiate. If we reach an agreement, then there will be eventually established the autonomy.

Mr. President, you know there are two different problems. One is about the oil. This is the most serious problem for us. Therefore, we would like to have a document as an annex to the peace treaty. You can be sure that we will pay for the oil. The second point, and believe me, Mr. President, is very unpleasant for me to mention it, but I have to fulfill my duty. After all the inquiries I have made personally, it is now clear that we cannot bear all the burden of moving all the armies from Sinai to the Negev without help. We will have bankruptcy. I am not an economist, but it was absolutely made clear to me. The people should rejoice in the peace. It will be for them disaster. So, I ask the Secretary of State about the financial assistance, if it should be a grant. This is what I actually meant, although it was my mistake at first.⁵ Then we need a loan for a longer period of time which we shall repay. This is the form of help. Of course, I can only present it to you as a most serious problem not connected with the peace treaty. It will not be a linkage or condition. But I present to you with respect. These are the problems that we have still. Mr. President, thank you for listening to me. Now I would like to hear you.

President Carter: All right, sir. Let me say again that the instruction by the Israeli Cabinet in approving the text of the treaty is very much appreciated, I know, by myself and the world. We will proceed to encourage President Sadat to accept the treaty text also without change, including, of course, Article VI which has been so troubling concerning the priority of obligations. I have no idea whether we will be successful, but we will be very eager to seek his approval of the treaty text. I don’t want to mislead you, however. I think that there is still one outstanding issue that needs to be resolved and that is concerning some assurance to President Sadat about the West Bank and Gaza, the elections, and the establishment of the autonomous self-government. President Sadat has expressed to me by telephone and also through Vice President Mubarak, who I also think met with Defense Minister Weizman, that he would prefer not to have the interim withdrawal from the Sinai until the election process has been completed. In our side-letter⁶ which was worked out, as you know, by your own negotiators, including Foreign Minister Dayan, there was a target date—I think the words used were a goal—of the end of 1979 for the conclusion of these elections. I have no particular views to put forward except that I think our draft of this letter is a fairly good compromise. We will, of course, continue our efforts to get President Sadat to agree with your views and vice versa. I will now be in touch with President Sadat to report to him on your communication to me by telephone this morning and also to encourage him to accept the draft of the treaty. I think that is very important that the negotiations continue and my expectation is that President Sadat will want some clear understanding with you, not through the treaty text, but through a separate letter that there be some definite commitment on the West Bank and Gaza.

We will also help to resolve the question concerning oil. My understanding from Secretary Vance is that this is not as difficult a problem as we had anticipated. The Egyptians are willing to assure Israel that you will have access to the oil, not to the exclusion of everyone else. I understand that is their position, but certainly your proximity to the wells gives you a natural advantage. In the meantime, because at this moment oil supplies are somewhat doubtful in the Middle East as you described yourself, I have already instructed Secretary Schlesinger to carry out our own obligations to you to fulfill Israel’s oil needs, so you need not be concerned about any transient or temporary problems with your energy supplies. We will assure that you have access to enough oil to take care of any temporary absence of oil supplies caused by the problems in Iran.

Prime Minister Begin: I am very grateful.

President Carter: Overall the situation has moved forward substantially, but we still have the same basic question not resolved yet concerning the West Bank and Gaza elections as it relates to the schedule for implementing the Sinai agreement. This is very important, as you know, to President Sadat. I hope he will be as flexible as possible on this issue and I think obviously the Israeli decision to adopt the treaty text is a step in the right direction. As we have contact with the Egyptians, we will let you know what President Sadat’s response is. Mr. Prime Minister, let me ask you about your plans concerning Dayan and Weizman coming back to Washington. Do they have plans to come back to continue the negotiations concerning oil and other matters.

Prime Minister Begin: Yes, sir.

President Carter: All right. I will get in touch with President Sadat⁷ as quickly as possible. I’ll be meeting with Secretary Vance⁸ in about ten or fifteen minutes on another matter. I’ll discuss my conversation with you to him.

Prime Minister Begin: The financial help, what I discussed with you?

President Carter: Yes, I’ll discuss it with my advisors, too. Obviously we recognize that Israel has special financial obligations. We have been reluctant, as you know, to make any specific commitments on this until we see the prospects for having a peace treaty between you and Egypt. But we recognize your special difficulties, Mr. Prime Minister, and we have historically been willing to give to Israel and we will be prepared to discuss this in more definite terms as the negotiations progress.

Prime Minister Begin: Thank you very much, Mr. President. Now, Mr. President, I only want to say that there shouldn’t be any doubt in your mind or with President Sadat that we want to implement the autonomy. The two delegations must meet and reach an agreement on the autonomy. It will take some time. As it happened yesterday, four people were killed. The PLO is around. You will not wish and President Sadat will not want it, if the PLO should take over. We are in complete agreement. There will be two delegations. Then when we have the agreement, then there is the question of the elections, and it will not present any difficulty. Then the people wish either to elect or to be elected. Therefore, this is the reason why we took that decision. Indeed, on a timetable we cannot accept. What we want to do is to start the negotiations quickly, a few weeks after the signing. I think it is very reasonable. It is absolutely appropriate to take the first draft written by Ambassador Atherton on your behalf, Mr. President.⁹ This [is] the whole difference now. I hope it is reasonable, because this is an objective situation. We have the PLO with their submachine guns. We have made great progress. We want peace and the peace treaty, so let us sign the text.

President Carter: Mr. Prime Minister, let me ask you if you are opposed to agreeing that the negotiations themselves would start within a month?

Prime Minister Begin: No, we are not opposed to it.

President Carter: Let me ask you a key question. This is the key question in President Sadat’s mind. If we do not establish a definite date for the elections and autonomous government in the West Bank, would you be willing to delay the interim withdrawal without any date being specified until those elections can be held? If the peace treaty is signed without delay, and if Israel has access to the Suez Canal, and so forth, as is intended in the treaty agreements?

Prime Minister Begin: I must admit, Mr. President, that I would hesitate to state my point of view. I need to consult with my colleagues.

President Carter: This is just a possibility for resolving the difference and I am not trying to speak for President Sadat. I am not trying to speak officially on that.

Prime Minister Begin: If the interim withdrawal does not start and is not completed, we don’t have the normal relations. I understand that as we are now that the peace treaty would only be signed and ratified.

President Carter: But you would have the free use of the Suez Canal, and then you would have the commencement of relations. This is something that we need to explore. I think that President Sadat is perfectly willing.

Prime Minister Begin: I have to consult with my colleagues.

President Carter: We need not put it to them as an official proposal, because I need to talk to President Sadat. This is just a thought. We will be in touch with you as soon as we get President Sadat’s response back. Secretary Vance will let you know when it’s appropriate for Dayan and Weizman and others to return. Is that okay?

Prime Minister Begin: They are prepared to return whenever you tell me.

President Carter: Thank you very much, Mr. Prime Minister. It is always a pleasure to talk to you. Good luck, good-bye.

1. Source: Carter Library, National Security Affairs, Brzezinski Material, Brzezinski Office File, Country Chron File, Box 22, Israel: 11/78–2/79. Secret. According to the President’s Daily Diary, Carter spoke with Begin from 9:33 a.m. to 9:55 a.m. on November 21. (Carter Library, Presidential Materials) The transcript was found attached to a November 21 covering memorandum from Quandt to Brzezinski stating that “[a]t times it was very difficult to understand Begin and his remarks are not completely recorded here,” though Carter’s were “verbatim.” Quandt also noted that this was a “more complete” transcript of the conversation. An earlier, draft summary version, bearing Carter’s handwritten corrections, is in the Carter Library, Plains File, President’s Personal Foreign Affairs File, Box 2, Israel, 11/77–2/79.
2. The Israeli Cabinet issued a statement on November 21 that “The Government of Israel is prepared to sign the treaty of peace with Egypt that was presented to it for consideration by the delegation of Israel to the peace negotiations, if Egypt is ready to act likewise. The latest proposals submitted by the Government of Egypt are inconsistent with the Camp David Agreements, and are unacceptable to Israel. After the signing and ratification of the treaty of peace between Egypt and Israel, Israel is prepared to start negotiations in order to reach agreement on the implementation of the administrative autonomy in Judea, Samaria, and the Gaza District, in accordance with the provisions of the ‘Framework for Peace in the Middle East;’ agreed at Camp David.” Dinitz delivered a copy of the statement to Ghorbal and Atherton to Vance on November 21. (Telegram 295235 to Tel Aviv, November 22; Carter Library, National Security Affairs, Brzezinski Material, Cables File, State Department Out, Box 114, 11/18–30/78. A copy of the version delivered by Dinitz is in the Department of State, Office of the Secretariat Staff, Cyrus R. Vance, Secretary of State—1977–1980, Lot 84D241, Box 4, unlabeled folder.
3. Not further identified.
4. On November 19, a bomb exploded on a bus near the West Bank settlement of Mizpe Jericho killing four passengers and wounding sixteen. (Telegram 3146 from Jerusalem, November 19; National Archives, RG 59, Central Foreign Policy File, D780477–0382)
5. In a marginal note on an earlier draft of this transcript, Carter underlined the word “grant” and wrote beside the paragraph: “He [Begin] said he asked for a loan—it was an error—he meant a grant.” See footnote 1 above.
6. See Document 131.
7. See Document 143.
8. According to the President’s Daily Diary, Carter held a meeting with Iranian Ambassador Ardeshir Zahedi from 10 a.m. to 10:40 a.m. on November 21, at which Vance was also present. (Carter Library, Presidential Materials)
9. Reference is to the initial negotiating draft of the treaty presented at the beginning of the Blair House talks. See footnote 2, Document 83.