Foreign Relations of the United States, 1977–1980, Volume VIII, Arab-Israeli Dispute, January 1977–August 1978

108. Memorandum of Conversation¹

Washington, September 21, 1977, 12:40–2:10 p.m.

SUBJECT

• Meeting of Secretary Vance and Egyptian Foreign Minister Fahmy

PARTICIPANTS

• Egyptian
• Ismail Fahmy, Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister
• Usama al-Baz, Undersecretary
• Ambassador Ashraf Ghorbal
• Mohamed Shaker, Minister, Egyptian Embassy
• Mohamad Baradie, Notetaker
• United States
• Secretary Vance
• Philip Habib, Under Secretary for Political Affairs
• Assistant Secretary Alfred L. Atherton, Jr.
• Ambassador Hermann Eilts
• William Quandt, National Security Council
• David Korn, Policy Planning Staff

Fahmy said that Security Council Resolution 242 must not be touched. It must be reaffirmed in the strongest terms. If 242 is changed in any way the situation will be impossible, Fahmy said. The Secretary said that if we get to Geneva, Geneva must be the forum for negotiations. The work of peacemaking will have to be done at Geneva, not elsewhere. Fahmy agreed strongly with this. He said there should be no “annexes” for deciding the problems; Geneva should be the framework. Fahmy said the negotiations at Geneva would obviously take months to complete. He added that “The Israelis will raise Hell and we will raise Hell,” but the negotiations will have to keep going on.

The Secretary asked Fahmy what he thought about Assad’s paper.² Fahmy said he knew that Assad was hesitant to send the United States anything at first but he later agreed to give the United States the principles.

The Secretary and Fahmy then turned to discussion of Southern Lebanon. Fahmy said the Syrians will not do anything in Southern Lebanon that would bring their troops into contact with the Israelis. However, the Israelis and the Christian Rightists are cooperating in an “unprecedented way.” Fahmy said the Israelis are using the Phalangists and have again expanded their intervention. Arafat has sent an urgent message to all Arab heads of state asking for their assistance. The Secretary said that in the last several days we have been doing everything we could to bring about a ceasefire in Southern Lebanon and to get the parties talking with each other in order to resolve the problem there. We have been acting as intermediary between Lebanon and Israel and have conveyed the positions of each side to the other. The Secretary said the big question now is whether we can get a ceasefire.

Fahmy asked who is doing the shooting. The Secretary replied that this time it is the Christians. However, the Israelis have been shelling in the area of the hill, and have also sent some armored personnel carriers over the border into Southern Lebanon. Fahmy asked why the Christians were doing this, especially after the Palestinians had adhered to the Shtaura Agreement. The Secretary said we don’t have a clear answer to that. The hill is important and is much fought over and has changed hands many times. The Secretary said we have not talked to the Christians about this. He added that the next phase, if the Shtaura Agreement is to be implemented, would be for all the Palestinian troops to go north of the Litani.

The Secretary explained that two battalions of Lebanese troops were to be moved into Southern Lebanon, but this was to be done only after the fighting stopped. Since the fighting had not yet stopped, the troops had not been moved in. The Secretary said we are doing everything possible to encourage the Lebanese to move their troops into the south. We are speeding up our deliveries of arms to the Lebanese, so that they will not have an excuse for staying out. Fahmy recalled that he had advised the stationing of a UN force in Southern Lebanon, but apparently the Syrians had said “No.”

The Secretary asked Mr. Habib if he had any comment on the situation in Southern Lebanon. Mr. Habib said the Christian troops that were doing the fighting are local militias, not Chamoun’s troops. Our latest reports indicate that Chamoun does not have control there. Fahmy asked who has control, and Mr. Habib responded that the Israelis did. Mr. Habib added, however, that the Christian troops were basically people from the local villages. They were concerned about the 850 Palestinian guerrillas in the area and they feel they are protecting their villages. Fahmy expressed confidence that the PLO could be counted on this time to honor its word. Fahmy said he had talked to Abu Iyad in Cairo, and Abu Iyad had told him that the PLO is ready to accept Shtaura. Abu Iyad is a serious man, Fahmy said, and when he tells you something you can rely on it.

Mr. Habib said that at first the Israelis were not even ready to have a cease-fire. Now they are willing to consider a cease-fire, so that is progress. We are working on the cease-fire now, with some hope of success. Mr. Habib said that General Khouri, the Commander of the Lebanese Army, had just been in Washington and we had urged him to take speedy action to send the Lebanese force into the south.³ Fahmy expressed the strongest hope that the Lebanese would move rapidly.

Fahmy asked if it were true that the Christians were no longer pushing for partition of Lebanon but now want to have full control of the country. Mr. Habib said he did not think this was true. The Christians have pretty much given up on partition, but they are maintaining their military positions. Mr. Atherton commented that the Christians are retaining their options. After a brief exchange in Arabic, Fahmy asked Mr. Al Baz to read from a telegram from the Egyptian Ambassador in Beirut. Al Baz translated the cable and Fahmy stressed that it was the Ambassador’s opinion that continuation of the fighting in Southern Lebanon will destroy hope for political stabilization in Lebanon. The Ambassador’s report said that the PLO would stop its military activity in the south by voluntary decision until further notice, if a ceasefire could be achieved. The report said the PLO would “not activate any front against Israel as long as other Arab fronts are quiet.” Fahmy commented that the Palestinians do not want trouble between themselves and the Israelis because it would embarrass Syria and cause it difficulty with Israel.

The party then adjourned for lunch. During the luncheon conversation there was extensive discussion by the Egyptian side of the press handling in this country of reports of discrimination in Egypt against the Copts. Ambassador Ghorbal said that people in the press were spreading “wild rumors about the Coptic situation.” Ghorbal said there were two or three Coptic journals in this country and Canada and their main purpose is to try to portray the Copts in Egypt as a downtrodden people. Fahmy also lamented the “unfair propaganda against Egypt” on the Coptic question.

There was a brief discussion of Ethiopia/Somalia. The Secretary said our information is that the Soviets have stopped supplying anything other than on-going parts for equipment already supplied to Somalia. Mr. Habib noted that we are not giving any military assistance to Ethiopia although they had asked us for assistance. Fahmy remarked that the American F–5’s in Ethiopia’s possession are “doing a good job.” Fahmy observed wryly, “You don’t want to give us any F–5’s.” Mr. Habib said that without spare parts and proper servicing the Ethiopian F–5’s would not remain operational for long. Fahmy said Israeli technicians will probably maintain them. Egyptian intelligence is that there are some 180 Israeli technicians in Ethiopia. Fahmy added that Egypt has turned down a request from Ethiopia to appoint an ambassador in Cairo. He said that Egypt has agreed to train and equip the Djibouti Army.

Ambassador Ghorbal asked about the situation in Chad. Mr. Habib said it seemed to be slowly deteriorating. The Secretary said we are looking to see what sort of military equipment we can provide the Government of Chad that would be useful. They want us to give them airplanes, but we do not think that would be useful. However, we can give them things like communications equipment.

Fahmy asked if there was anything new in U.S.-Libyan relations. Mr. Habib said the Libyans keep telling us how much they like us and asking us to give them C–130’s. Mr. Atherton added that they also want us to accept their ambassador. Ambassador Eilts asked if Libyan/Egyptian disengagement plans had gone into effect yet, to which Fahmy replied, “No.”

There ensued a lengthy discussion of the prospects for ratification of the Panama Canal Treaty and the situation in that regard in the Senate.

The luncheon adjourned at 2:10 p.m.

1. Source: Carter Library, National Security Affairs, Staff Material, Middle East File, Trips/Visits File, Box 107, 9/19/77–10/25/77 Vance Meetings with Middle East Foreign Ministers: 9–10/77. Secret; Nodis. Drafted by Korn. The meeting took place in the Secretary’s office at the Department of State.
2. Apparently a reference to Asad’s message to Carter outlining Syrian proposals for a peace treaty. See Document 102.
3. No memorandum of conversation has been found.