105. Memorandum of Conversation1
PARTICIPANTS
- Valery Giscard d’Estaing, President of the French Republic
- Jean Sauvagnargues, Minister of Foreign Affairs
- President Gerald R. Ford
- Dr. Henry A. Kissinger, Secretary of State and Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs
- Lt. General Brent Scowcroft, Deputy Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs
SUBJECTS
- European Unity; Nuclear Proliferation
[Omitted here is discussion of European unity.]
Nuclear Proliferation
Giscard: I want to explore the Non-Proliferation Treaty. You have a meeting in April 1975. Our position has been not to join it but to follow the rules of it. We see that a number of countries which earlier thought to join it have not done so. Does that change your approach?
President: For us to back off would not be understood in the U.S., and the Congress is strongly for the NPT. We would urge an exporters conference.
Giscard: This is on nuclear materials.
Kissinger: Yes, it is a separate matter from the Non-Proliferation Treaty.
President: We are worried about the lack of safeguards of some exporters. If the suppliers could meet outside the treaty perhaps, it would be useful.
Giscard: You made a step by suggesting it a month ago.
Kissinger: Yes, we held off for you.
Giscard: And the Soviet Union?
Kissinger: They have agreed in principle.
Giscard: We are cautious. In principle, I share the idea of participation. We must not take it highhandedly. We are wary of the mechanism because of the experience of the COCOM. There were a lot of problems with it, sometimes absurd. There was an electronic sale to Poland which took three years to get through COCOM.
Kissinger: What we have in mind is not COCOM. That was just a ban on strategic materials and each case was determined separately. Here we would agree on safeguards, and then all of us could sell all the reactors they can without further reference to any central authority.
President: We want uniform rules only.
Kissinger: Yes, we don’t want a body to license reactors. We would set up the rules and then let each country make its own sales decision.
Sauvagnargues: There have been contacts. We are studying the Ingersoll proposal but we are wary of an international body with strong controls. Also we have relations with your AEC on a bilateral approach.
Kissinger: Ingersoll is our position. Dixy [Lee Ray] got seduced by your people. This is not a competitive problem at all. We have those in our bureaucracy who are passionate on nonproliferation. We have resisted Soviet pressure on the NPT. On safeguards, we are prepared for preliminary talks with you beforehand so there are no surprises. [Page 342] We just don’t want competition in safeguards, especially on the part of the Soviet Union.
President: We have transferred Dixy to State!
Kissinger: So she will be under moderate control. [They talked about Dixy a bit.] Seriously, we will sit down with your experts to work out the specifics.
Sauvagnargues: In other words X would agree not to sell unless the buyers agree to the agreed safeguards.
Giscard: We will send our experts to talk.
Kissinger: Mrs. Gandhi said she would agree, but multilaterally not bilaterally. She said there would otherwise be pressure in the Middle East.
Giscard: Do you think it is possible to limit the flow of nuclear materials?
Kissinger: I think we can slow it down.
Giscard: Because you have [less than 1 line not declassified] the PRC, etc.
Kissinger: Not all these countries have ever transferred the technology. The PRC hasn’t; [less than 1 line not declassified]
President: Have the Canadians agreed?
Kissinger: Yes. We thought we might call a conference.
Giscard: We will send our experts.
President: We won’t act until you do.
Giscard: The countries who haven’t ratified . . .
Kissinger: You don’t have to be in the Non Proliferation Treaty to participate in a suppliers conference. We don’t think many more will join the NPT. We don’t think we need that for a suppliers conference.
We think the Latin American countries may move.
Giscard: Who?
Kissinger: Argentina.
Sauvagnargues: Has Japan signed?
Kissinger: Yes, but not ratified. But countries don’t have to sign the NPT to join this. The Soviet Union has persistently sought to engage us in joint pressures on the NPT—we refused to pressure you or the PRC.
Giscard: It would be important to have India.
Sauvagnargues: Our experts are wary of an international organization.
Kissinger: Someone must administer the safeguards. The Vienna group is OK. We don’t have to have a new setup. India will join multilaterally, but not to safeguards applied just to them. We are worried that India may start selling materials.
[Page 343]President: Is there anything else?
Kissinger: May I say in the press conference that we agreed to discussions on more safeguards?
Giscard: Bilateral.
Kissinger: We need to move quickly. We have held up a long time now.
Giscard: There is also a technical question about breeders. We can leave the question to the technicians. We are fairly far along. You have had problems.
President: Technical and financial. Are yours going well?
Giscard: Yes, but it won’t happen before 1975.
President: We have advocates and ardent opponents. Also we have a time factor.
Let me say I am pleased not only by the substance of our meeting but the atmosphere. I want to thank you for everything, including the warm words in the toast. I would like you to come to the United States.
Giscard: I would like to come to the United States. It is a pleasure to know you. I attach importance to our personal relationship and I want to continue the relationship.
President: I know of nothing else.
[The meeting then ended.]
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Summary: In a meeting with French President Giscard d’Estaing and Minister of Foreign Affairs Sauvagnargues, President Ford and Kissinger discussed approaches to the nonproliferation of nuclear weapons.
Source: Ford Library, National Security Adviser, Memoranda of Conversations, Memoranda of Conversations–Ford Administration, 1974–77, Box 8, December 16, 1974—Ford, Kissinger, French President Valery Giscard d’Estaing, Foreign Minister Jean Sauvagnargues. Secret; Nodis. The meeting took place at the Hotel Meridien in Martinique. No drafting information appears on the memorandum of conversation. All brackets are in the original except those indicating text that remains classified or that was omitted by the editors. Ford met with Giscard d’Estaing December 14–16.
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