Foreign Relations of the United States, 1969–1976, Volume E–11, Part 1, Documents on Mexico; Central America; and the Caribbean, 1973–1976

96. Memorandum of Conversation¹

Mexico City, June 10, 1976, 7:45–10 p.m.

SUBJECT

• Secretary’s Meeting with Mexican Foreign Minister Garcia Robles

PARTICIPANTS

• MEXICAN
• Foreign Minister Alfonso Garcia Robles
• Under Secretary Jose Gallastegui
• Under Secretary for Special International Studies and Affairs Jorge Castaneda
• Ambassador Jose Juan de Olloqui
• U.S.
• Secretary Kissinger
• Under Secretary Carl Maw
• Assistant Secretary William D. Rogers
• Ambassador Joseph John Jova
• Stephen Low (Notetaker)

Garcia Robles: I would like to welcome you to Mexico, Mr. Secretary. We have a number of subjects which we would like to discuss with you. I gave a list of them to Ambassador Jova, and we would be glad to discuss anything which you would like to bring up. I propose we discuss them in this order: First, trade relations between the U.S. and Mexico. Second, the question of illegal trafficking of narcotics. Third, the question of undocumented migrant workers. Fourth, the question of American prisoners in Mexican jails, and Mexican prisoners in American jails. Fifth, the question of the exclusive economic zone. Sixth, the question of exploration and exploitation of the deep-sea and seabed resources. Seventh, the question of the reform of the inter-American system. Eighth, any comment the Secretary would like to make on your participation in the General Assembly in Santiago. The list isn’t limited, and we would be pleased to examine any matters that the Secretary would like to add to it.

The Secretary: Do you serve breakfast? We may need it with that list.

Garcia Robles: You could make it as long or as short as you wish. Shall I start?

[Omitted here is discussion of trade relations.]

Garcia Robles: The second subject, the question of illegal trafficking in narcotics, is easy. Immediately after the visit of Attorney General Paullada when he met the highest officials of your country, including the President, Ambassador Vance affirmed that Mexico was spending $35 million annually while the U.S. spent something like $33 million during six years to eradicate the production of narcotics in Mexico which was consumed in the U.S. He also mentioned the soldiers and policemen who have been killed in the campaign. Mexico has been doing its share, and I am happy that it is being recognized by the U.S.

The Secretary: We greatly appreciate it. I will take the occasion to mention it in a public statement. We don’t have any specific requests to make.

Jova: We are satisfied with the cooperation and hope it will increase.

Garcia Robles: The question of undocumented migrant workers is next. The results were encouraging of the meeting of the two Commissions last April. The spirit which prevailed was very good. We have found that there was a spirit of understanding on both sides, so that the problems could be solved. We have made some modest, concrete suggestions in connection with the migratory workers who have been living for some time in the U.S. They are virtual residents there. We would like the U.S. Government to do its best to normalize their conditions.

The Secretary: Do you mean the minimum wage law or citizenship?

Jova: That they not be subject to expulsion.

The Secretary: How do we know how long they have been there?

Castaneda: This has been discussed for years. There is a draft law before Congress. If they are working, then the migratory situation should be regularized. For those who are receiving money from welfare, perhaps not.

The Secretary: I discussed that problem after the meeting with President Ford on the border. Labor is for it. The trouble is that those who are doing the hiring would oppose it. Meany is for it, but he is against letting them in. Once in, he would want to protect them.

Castaneda: That’s our view, too.

The Secretary: We have never had a study of this. I have never seen one.

Garcia Robles: The working groups which met are actively discussing a study on this subject.

The Secretary: Can we produce on it?

Garcia Robles: We haven’t come to a firm conclusion as to how we ought to be going, given the size of the problem and politics involved. Many imaginative ideas came out of the meeting.

Castaneda: One of the ideas was to strengthen the border industries. Increasing the American market could help keep people on the land.

Jova: These are the two problems: keeping people on the land and protecting those already in the U.S.

Garcia Robles: Another measure we think would be possible and not difficult is a campaign against middlemen who, for personal advantage, incite workers to migrate. We want to recommend that officials at minor levels be more prudent with the information they publicize.

The Secretary: I have no trouble with this in principle; I am in agreement with it. But how do we apply it to the undocumented workers? What is the issue?

Garcia Robles: The gravity of the effects of the workers on employment in the U.S. has been exaggerated by some.

The Secretary: Who does that? Don’t be too polite with me. I am not so subtle. Is there something specific? Some agency of ours that is doing something?

Castaneda: In the working group we agreed that it is desirable for both governments to try to avoid exaggeration. In one or two instances, the Immigration and Naturalization Service did so. No one knows what the problem is exactly, and the figures have been exaggerated.

The Secretary: If something concrete can be done, if there is a useful contribution I can make, I would like to do so. Who is the top official? I can contact him.

Olloqui: General Chapman gave an interview. He said that the U.S. is flooded with migrant workers. When this kind of thing is published, it creates misunderstanding and Meany gets excited. He starts talking about a silent invasion.

The Secretary: Chapman is under Levy. I will take it up with him.

Rogers: He’s been better lately.

Jova: Somewhat more discrete.

Garcia Robles: Then there is the matter of violent attacks to which the undocumented workers are subject when they enter the U.S. There was an article last Sunday in the New York Times entitled “Bandit Gangs Prey on Mexicans When They Enter the U.S.” (He reads the article.)

The Secretary: Would that be the Texas government?

Rogers: Both State and Federal authorities are responsible.

Garcia Robles: The Immigration and Naturalization Service recognizes the seriousness of this. Another article I have here states that they recently doubled their force on the border. There are both Mexican gangs and American gangs involved in the mistreatment of these people.

Finally, there is one other question. Your presence has already had a salutory effect on this. There are some 18,000 workers who were going to be repatriated in groups of 100 to 200 a day. Your Embassy convinced the officials in Washington that this would not be the most appropriate moment.

The Secretary: For how long have they held it up?

Rogers: About ten days, I believe.

Garcia Robles: I believe conversations would be called for before embarking on this kind of operation.

The Secretary: Where do we stand?

Jova: They have desisted from charter flights. They wanted to do it commercially this week but it was postponed.

The Secretary: For a definite time?

Jova: Two weeks, but they haven’t set a specific date.

The Secretary: I am trying to find out what I have to do to get a hold of the problem. Who is doing it? The Immigration and Naturalization Service?

Jova: Yes. This has been done over the years without objection when it is orderly. The fact they tried to do it by a charter created problems. Mexico wants to be able to document the workers before they leave the U.S.

The Secretary: I understand that you are asking to discuss the matter, not to stop the repatriation. You want to permit it, but to do it in an orderly fashion. In that case, let’s see what we can do. I am in favor of discussion so you don’t have people dumped on you on a rate which creates problems for you.

Garcia Robles: We need agreement on an orderly procedure. Sometimes the workers are not Mexicans but from other Latin American countries. Most are not documented. At least we need to find which are Mexicans and which are not.

The Secretary: It’s a fair request.

Garcia Robles: Second, at this end of the line, they come to Mexico City where they become a problem.

The Secretary: It is a fair argument. We should do it. I will take this up personally on Monday. (To Rogers) Call Chapman about the public statements. (To Garcia Robles) We will let you know next week.

Garcia Robles: The question of American prisoners in Mexico and Mexican prisoners in American jails is next. A few figures would be good to bear in mind. On the 2nd of February 1976 there were 1,103 Mexican prisoners of both sexes in Federal prisons in the United States. I am not referring to the detention camps where there are 18,000.

The Secretary: In camps?

Jova: These are detention camps, not prisons.

Garcia Robles: Of the prisoners, 540 were in jail for violations of the migratory workers law; 451 on narcotics charges, and 112 for a variety of other charges. If these cases were examined with the same care which some American parents are giving the cases involving their sons in Mexico, there would undoubtedly be some cases of abuse revealed.

The Secretary: Prisons are places that encourage abuse.

Garcia Robles: Fifteen are minors and could have been liberated.

The Secretary: In Federal prisons—below 18?

Olloqui: These fellows are less than 15.

The Secretary: Our Federal prisons? Inconceivable! What did they do? Have we any procedure for dealing with this? If you have a complaint, how do we handle it?

Garcia Robles: The situation is not the best. There or here. Many Mexicans have been kept unduly in prisons in order to use them as witnesses in other cases. In Mexico we have roughly 600 American prisoners. Most of these are there on narcotics violations. One of the last lists which the Embassy gave us indicated that last March there were 66 Americans in prisons in the consular district under the responsibility of the Embassy itself. Fifty-eight were in prison because of narcotics violations. The campaign in the U.S. against the treatment of American detainees gathered strength immediately after Mexico had passed legislation cancelling bail. The Mafia felt trapped when they landed in prison and couldn’t get out right away. But, of course, you have to take into account the parental feelings of those who have sons in jail. We could consider a mutual exchange of prisoners. I was amazed to read in Excelsior that there was a cable from their Washington correspondent saying that an officer of the State Department had said that international exchange of prisoners is a practice for countries at war, not those which are at peace with each other.

The Secretary: Our government at this moment is not the most disciplined of which history informs us. There are many who take advantage of this lack of discipline. We have not made a decision on this matter. Our legal people have studied it and point out that it could obligate us to carry out your sentences. They ask how it would affect our procedures for habeas corpus. We normally release people who have served one-third of their time. How will this affect relations if we release persons whom you have sentenced before you would have? Nevertheless, I decided to ask for a restudy of the matter. Even if this idea doesn’t work, there is a concept here which we want to explore. Whoever made that idiotic statement doesn’t represent our views. We think it is an interesting idea. I want to form a working group when we get back to study the legal questions, not the principle. One of the problems is that you would be angry if we released prisoners you had condemned. We could discuss this in working out the agreement. We want to restudy the proposal and consider it. We are open to your ideas which we consider very imaginative.

Rogers: It might be productive if we have bilateral conversations. You have thought about this and we would like to know more about your ideas.

Garcia Robles: There are many precedents. One is a convention of May 28, 1970, at The Hague, of the European Council. There is another convention signed by Cyprus, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden.

The Secretary: Do you think Cyprus and Denmark have many prisoners to exchange?

Garcia Robles: And there is the fifth committee in Geneva on exchange of prisoners.

Rogers: The idea is good. Let’s exchange a list of problems. There are procedures in Mexico which need to be studied.

The Secretary: We will work through the Embassy to get talks started soon.

[Omitted here is discussion of law of the sea issues and reform of the inter-American system.]

1. Summary: In a meeting with García Robles and other Mexican Foreign Secretariat officials, Kissinger and other Department officials discussed anti-drug efforts, illegal migration, and the possibility of a prisoner transfer agreement.

   Source: National Archives, RG 59, Central Foreign Policy File, P820118–1381. Secret; Nodis. Approved by Haley Collums in S on July 20. The conversation took place at the Mexican Foreign Ministry in Mexico City. All brackets are in the original except those indicating text omitted by the editors. Attached but not published is a list of action items arising from the conversation between Kissinger and García Robles. The article García Robles mentioned was published June 6. (Everett R. Holles, “Bandit Gangs Prey on Mexican Aliens Crossing Border to Seek Work in U.S.,” New York Times, June 6, 1976, p. 26)