144. Transcript of a Telephone Conversation Between President Nixon and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (Moorer)1

PRESUS: What is the latest evaluation of things? I am going to brief the press corps tomorrow night. Ans: We are going to get you, in fact we already have some curves that you asked for but are having them updated which shows the flow of materials.

PRESUS: That would be fine to show that the flow of materials down into SVN is slowed down so that we can show that something positive actually has taken place during the three weeks the ARVN forces have been in there. This is certainly a compliment for these fellows. Ans: Yes sir. What I have said in my press releases and conferences is that the degree of success is directly proportional to the disruption of their supplies and the ultimate impact will take awhile to be felt but it is very significant there is no question about that. The SVN are really showering them and showing the importance of their effort. They are certainly fighting and exerting themselves to the utmost so far as they are concerned, the SVN continue their preparations and their movements into Laos. There has been some heavy fighting up around the two FSB which are 30 and 31. Gen Abrams told me last evening, and in addition, they have moved one battalion further west along just south of Highway 9.

PRESUS: Do they airlift those in? Ans: Yes sir, but we lost some helicopters. Nevertheless, they did get in all right.

PRESUS: Was it a substantial loss of helicopters?—Ans: We don’t know yet. About five we believe but I don’t think many people were hurt in the process. This, of course, is the furthest West we had a unit of this size. We have the SVN significantly reenforced their tanks and there is a group of several tanks moving along Highway 9 towards the intersection of 92. There have been some sharp clashes where they have succeeded in killing several of the enemy and, according to Gen Abrams, he expects tonight when it gets daylight out there again for the fighting to really resume at a rather fast pace between 194—southwest and 9—east and west. Over in Tchepone the enemy is bringing in some forces and servicing forces because the trucks and other action over there which indicates I am sure a shuttle action and is joining into 92 at that intersection. The enemy indications are they are hurting for [Page 444] supplies and the flow has been cut off but they are digging in to stay and fight. Now I have been concerned myself about Khe Sanh. I have been working on this for three days talking to people out there. I now have a plan for dispersing their helicopters. Also now that the engineers are finished building the field they are now building revetments for the helicopters, they have established perimeter defenses out to the limits of the rocket range that might be used against Khe Sanh. So it appears to me that everything done has been prudently taken from a military man’s point of view that could be done. I am sure they will take a couple of rounds of rocket fire but that area is almost 5 acres so they won’t be able to pinpoint any one target at least so, Mr. President, overall at least the fighting will still be heavy and inflict severe casualties on the other side. The SVN has lost people and they know they’ll lose more. But generally speaking Gen Abrams feels the SVN are fighting very well.

PRESUS: They are not panicking? Ans: No sir. He feels there is still alot of hard fighting ahead. As you pointed out several times, the longer they stay in there the better the impact will be and in the long run it is more than just a disruption of their supplies. I think if the SVN can show that they can hold their own with the best and have done this so far and put forth greater effort I am sure psychologically it will have a tremendous impact on the NVN overall. Some tough contacts and hard fighting are going on but the SVN continue to go on with their original plans.

PRESUS: How about Cambodia? Ans: The Chup Operation. I suppose they are suffering from the loss of Gen Tri2 and that the new Commander will take awhile to instill the leadership and faith and confidence the men require. But in one contact they killed 54 enemy soldiers and two other contacts during the night the ARVN lost 10 but they haven’t been able to tell us how many the others lost but, nevertheless, they are continuing the other operation. We know they are hurting and have been zeroing in on one area so this is a good sign that they are willing to stand and fight instead of moving around behind and keeping on the go. We are going to lay in some B52 strikes this morning Southwest of Ton-my. In this operation it is going along as well as expected and it is going to last until 1 July. I think they are playing it cool and making certain they have got the necessary reenforcements and support, etc., as they move around in that area.

PRESUS: The ARVN is doing that? Ans: That’s right. I think as far as the trucks are concerned the NVN are hurting and indications are that they are having a tough job of reestablishing themselves in the [Page 445] sanctuaries that they occupied last year making these SVN operations very satisfactory indeed.

PRESUS: I understand it will be hard . . . is the missile activity across the DMZ increasing? Ans: We have had one report saying that it was fired from inside Laos. I don’t believe that. We haven’t been able to confirm the report because it was seen at night. But, as you know, we are standing by to attack these sites that are just across the border and we are pinning them down now. None of our planes have been hit so far although they have fired quite a few missiles but so far they have avoided contact.

PRESUS: Let me ask in terms of the ARVN’s ability to stay in the Southern Laotian thing, we still feel that despite this they are going to get knocked around they can hang in there another month? Ans: Yes sir. I don’t have any reason to believe otherwise.

PRESUS: We are not shifting our sights at least in that respect? Ans: No sir. The enemy for awhile from intercepts said they were expecting some withdrawals (you probably saw it in the Presidential Daily Bulletin) but we have had no more of that the last few days from enemy intercepts but from Gen Abrams and his group no one has the remotest idea of changing their plans.

PRESUS: By the enemy you mean the ARVN would withdraw you mean? Ans: That’s right.

PRESUS: I didn’t see that, no. Ans: They may have been referring to the FSB 31 or something like that when we had to withdraw that one battalion (39th) of the Airborne but we replaced it.

PRESUS: How about coming up that road we spoke of? Ans: As I told they are at 9 but not on the road—214 that runs southeast from Tchepone area southeast and joins up with 92. The 1st Division is moving forward and bringing all their assembling battalions so they can handle that. Actually we have very few vehicle indicators from sensors yesterday. The truck kills, etc., are up, and also down that whole complex Highway 23 all the way over to the west we have had no moving traffic on that.

PRESUS: That’s out in the open more? Ans: Yes, we have four battalions of irregulars cutting trees in three or four different places and at least nothing but local trucks are getting by there if any. They haven’t succeeded in rerouting the traffic.

PRESUS: How about Highway 9? Ans: We haven’t had any in several days. The ARVN are on that one. We have had some tank activity along 94 . . .

PRESUS: What kind of tanks do our people have—what kind do the ARVN have? Ans: T41 tanks which is a match for the TF–76 do not have heavy AA gun but the T34 and T54 were seen in Laos for the first [Page 446] time; however, I just received photographs of tanks destroyed and the ARVN have destroyed 38 tanks overall. But one type of tank is really an armored amphibious vehicle but we have never seen the other types—the T34 and T54.

PRESUS: What approximately is the balance between the tanks in that area? Ans: As I told you, they just moved 28 tanks down Highway from SVN but on balance and in consideration of the number the NVN have lost to date, they have more than the advantage because of the air support they get. What they are using these tanks for in this area because it is not flat and you can’t use them in the classic sense (as in the Battle of the Bulge), they are mobile armed artillery vehicles and are used for assaults on these positions and we have supplied the ARVN with some additional anti-tank weapons 3⅓ rocket which is sharply charged with a live load and if they can still for a couple of hundred yards can knock them off. Some of the photographs I have show the tanks bottom up with the tracks up in the air. If the aircraft can get at them in the aircraft can kill them.

PRESUS: Yes, sir! Ans: But in the day time they cover them up with all kinds of foliage and use them primarily at night for the mobility aspects for their artillery. We don’t have the facts as yet on how many tanks they have gone in there. So far two battalions we know that overall they have about 250 tanks but traditionally they have been kept in the Hanoi/Haiphong/Red River area and haven’t used the tanks in this area to speak of except for the 74.

PRESUS: Could they get over here from Hanoi? Ans: I’m certain in the long term they could ultimately do it but don’t think it would be very feasible but we don’t have any firm intelligence in terms of communications intercepts.

PRESUS: I suppose with our air attacks on these tanks, that there are as many as they need and we really don’t need more? Ans: The ARVN has about all they can handle at the present time and we have looked at the idea of bringing some of their tanks up from Military Region II if they do lose some. They can get some more in there right now. I think they just have as many as they can use and they will put up a helluva fight.

PRESUS: How does Gen Abrams feel, Admiral, is he keeping his poise and everything? Ans: No question about him and Gen Vien they both are excellent. Vien is a real tiger in the thing and Gen Abrams recognizes the fact that they having a tough time but he feels they are fighting well. I will talk to him again tonight and I will be happy to call you back.

PRESUS: I will talk to you again tomorrow about this time Admiral.

  1. Source: National Archives, RG 218, Records of the Chairman, Moorer Diary, July 1970–July 1974. No classification marking.
  2. See footnote 2, Document 140.