365. Memorandum of Conversation1
SUBJECT
- United Nations Outer Space Committee and Conference
PARTICIPANTS
- Dr. Hugh Dryden, NASA
- Dr. John P. Hagen, NASA
- Mr. Arnold Frutkin, NASA
- Mr. Philip Farley, S/AE
- Mr. Wreatham Gathright, S/AE
- Mr. Herbert Reis, L/UNA
- Ambassador Plimpton, USUN
- Mr. Peter Thatcher, USUN
- Mr. Harlan Cleveland, IO
- Mr. Richard Gardner, IO
- Mr. William Jones, UNP
- Mr. William Buffum, UNP
- Mr. Oliver Crosby, UNP
Mr. Cleveland said he was pleased to have this opportunity to hear Dr. Dryden, Deputy Administrator of NASA, speak on United States space plans, expected Soviet space accomplishments and the relevance of these to the proposed Outer Space Conference. After a review of Soviet and United States space accomplishments, Dr. Dryden observed that the early Soviet development of large rocket boosters has given them an advantage in manned space flight which we can only hope to overcome over the long run. He said that while NASA hopes to put an astronaut in orbit by the end of the year, the Soviet Union has the capability to put a manned space laboratory in orbit immediately. Dr. Dryden estimated that a manned lunar orbiter or lunar landing, perhaps in 1967, offers the United States its first chance to overtake the Soviet Union in manned space flight. For this, however, the NASA budget would have to be increased to $4–5 billion a year. Dr. Dryden said President Kennedy will be sending up a message to the Congress on this in a week or so.
Dr. Dryden stated that the United States clearly leads the Soviet Union with respect to scientific research in outer space and particularly in development of meteorological and communications satellites. He indicated that the Weather Bureau’s Nimbus meteorological satellite system should be operational by 1963 or 1964 and should bring great advantages in terms of weather analysis and typhoon warning as well as forecasting for military operations and reconnaissance purposes. The communications satellite is in an earlier stage, but a contract has just been signed with RCA for construction of a repeater satellite, and AT & T is making arrangements for a similar experiment at its own expense.
[Page 821]Although Dr. Dryden said there was some question as to the relative value of prestige derived from scientific accomplishments and from manned flight in outer space, he expected that we would stand up well vis-a-vis the Soviet Union in an international Outer Space Conference if it were held soon. As time passes, however, the Soviet Union will have an opportunity to catch up in the scientific area, and the comparison will be less favorable for the United States. Dr. Dryden estimated that the Conference might become of somewhat dubious value if it were not held until 1962. Mr. Farley asked whether in light of this we should continue to plan for an Outer Space Conference or whether we should take advantage of the difficulties with the Soviet Union to let the matter die. Dr. Hagen said that if the Conference can be held by the end of 1961, we will be able to meet our major objectives and demonstrate the significance of our outer space achievements.
Mr. Thatcher asked how important the intelligence aspects of such a Conference might be. Dr. Dryden said there would be some possibility of intelligence value, but this would have to be judged together with prestige aspects. Mr. Gardner observed that since Soviet space accomplishments are bound to produce publicity harmful to United States prestige, an Outer Space Conference might offer us a countering opportunity to draw attention to our scientific accomplishments, which have too often been eclipsed by Soviet spectaculars.
Brief mention was made of the possible desirability of going ahead with the United Nations Space Conference without Soviet participation. Dr. Dryden said opinion was divided within NASA on this score, and he was skeptical of the idea.
Mr. Frutkin pointed out that we cannot wait for agreement on a United Nations Space Conference to capitalize on our space accomplishments, and Dr. Dryden indicated that NASA is examining the question of the comparative utility of an overall Outer Space Conference versus individual conferences of a more specialized nature. If there is no action on the United Nations Outer Space Conference by the middle of this year, Dr. Dryden said NASA will have to abandon its preparations for such a conference and salvage what it can for use in other conferences. NASA plans on June 6th to release the findings from the Freedom Seven ballistic flight of Commander Shepard. Over the longer range, NASA plans to play an active role in the International Astronautical Federation Congress in Washington this October, plans a conference on meteorological satellites in the next six months, and plans a space research conference in the Spring of 1962. Mr. Gardner suggested that the theme of a meteorological conference should be the use of outer space for the benefit of humanity, for this would point up the contrast between the open United States and closed Soviet approaches.
[Page 822]Ambassador Plimpton said it was difficult to tell from his conversation with Zorin on May 11 whether the Soviet Union is really interested in the Outer Space Committee and Conference. The Indian Representative at the United Nations, after talking with Zorin, has advocated agreement on a unanimity rule in the Outer Space Committee, but Ambassador Plimpton stated that we would be willing only to make a statement expressing the hope that the Committee will be able to perform its work without the need for voting.
Dr. Hagen asked if USUN had sounded out our friends on the question of convening the Space Committee despite a possible Soviet boycott. Mr. Thatcher said that conversations with the friendly members of the Outer Space Committee had indicated they might be reluctant to proceed in the face of Soviet boycott. Mr. Farley commented that it might nevertheless be possible to bring about a meeting of the Committee without the Soviets if this is necessary.
With regard to the work of the Outer Space Committee, Mr. Cleveland said the two central questions are: a) what outer space projects will we be pursuing in which international cooperation is possible, and b) what pressures can we bring to bear on the Soviets to internationalize those aspects of their space program in which they are ahead of us?
There followed some discussion of present international cooperation in connection with the United States Tiros meteorological satellite program, the Mercury program and other operations. Mr. Frutkin asserted that NASA has opened up its programs to the maximum foreign cooperation possible, and he added that the bilateral cooperative programs which we now have with Italy, Japan, and various other states figure prominently in the reports of the Committee on Space Research (COSPAR) of the International Council of Scientific Unions (ICSU), representing pressure on the Soviets to adopt a more cooperative approach.
The meeting closed with some discussion of the institutional aspects of international cooperation in outer space. Dr. Dryden hesitated to suggest any specific cooperative proposals for submission to the Outer Space Committee until the role envisioned for the Committee is clarified. Mr. Cleveland stated that the United States should decide soon how it wants to proceed in international space cooperation, for we are the leaders in building international institutions and should be in the forefront in promotion of an international regime for outer space. Mr. Gardner suggested that a beginning might be made by pressing for agreement on the legal status of outer space and celestial bodies. He also pointed out that the operational problems of communications or other satellite systems would be simplified if the operating agency were [Page 823] of an international character. Mr. Farley said he envisioned that the communications satellite system would be a joint, cooperative project in which United States participation would be by private companies and that of most other countries by public agencies. Mr. Cleveland observed that establishment of an international regime for outer space calls for a broader jurisdiction and competence than that available in the ITU or WMO, and he envisioned establishment of an international body which would move toward assumption of an administrative role with respect to outer space activities. Dr. Dryden expressed the view that it would be very difficult to establish a workable international agency for outer space cooperation and questioned whether the United Nations has operational capabilities which would permit it to play such a role. Mr. Cleveland agreed that most problems of international administration have become tremendously complex, but he cited the successful operation of the European Coal and Steel Community and expressed the conviction that this is the kind of approach that will be called for in the field of outer space in the next twenty years. As far as United Nations capabilities are concerned, Mr. Cleveland pointed to the operation in the Congo as an example of its executive potential and drew attention to the relative success we have enjoyed in the Congo in contrast to the experience in other areas where we have relied on a unilateral approach.
- Source: National Archives and Records Administration, RG 59, Central Files 1960–63, 701.56311/5–1961. Confidential. Drafted by Crosby on May 23.↩