195. Memorandum of Conversation0
SUBJECT
- Wednesday Afternoon Talks
PARTICIPANTS
- United States
- President Kennedy
- Mr. Glenn (Interpreter)
- France
- General De Gaulle
- Mr. Lebel (Interpreter)
[Here follows discussion of other matters.]
Africa
The President said that he wanted to discuss the African problems both the most direct problems of that continent as well as those of relationships between Western Europe and Africa. The U.S. recognizes French experience and French interest in that area. U.S. interests are only complementary and consist mainly in preventing a Communist ingression to that area and the ingression of the cold war itself into Africa. The problem is one of method. If the President understands correctly, General De Gaulle does not think that the United Nations constitutes the best instrument for dealing with African questions and, in particular, that of the Congo. The only advantage which the President sees in relying on the U.N. (and even that advantage is one that is somewhat decreasing as [Page 293] time goes on) is that action taken at the U.N. may prevent a direct clash between East and West. The U.S. is worrying not only about the Congo but also about Angola and in the latter case not only because our Portuguese friends are concerned in it but because the situation is rapidly deteriorating with Ghana, Guinea and the Communists taking a hand. In addition, the loss of Angola to Portugal would create serious economic difficulties to the latter country.
General De Gaulle said that there are many Africas. There is Black Africa and even Black Africa is very diverse. There is, for example, a country such as Senegal which has a long history of continuous relations with the West and from which many migrants and traders have gone to many countries even to the U.S. There are other countries of Black Africa which have always been poor and which tend therefore to lean towards extreme solutions. France has had a lot of experience in Black Africa having colonized an important part of it, important not so much because of its population (which amounted only to twenty-five million) but because of the land area represented. French colonization was very fraternal and the French have educated many administrators and political men in those countries. Decolonization was also friendly and most of the French possessions want to preserve their ties with France. An exception is Guinea and Guinea is an exception because of Sekou Toure who is a Communist and who not having been able to keep both French aid and a Communist organization preferred to renounce the former. Elsewhere France continues to count friends even if sometimes their action is marked by their pride and by a certain pretentiousness of young countries. Nevertheless, friendship toward the French is a question of fact. Unfortunately, the same type of policy was not followed in other parts of Africa. In the Congo, the Belgians provided little aid and would not leave cadres capable of administering the country. When the blow-up in the Congo occurred, General De Gaulle wrote to President Eisenhower suggesting that an approach through the UN should be avoided, that it would be better to have a tripartite action of the U.S., U.K. and France which should exercise a joint pressure on the Belgians and the Congolese to bring about the implementation on both sides of the Belgian Congo Mutual Assistance Treaty, which would have enabled Belgian aid to continue and which would have kept the East out of the Congo as it was not covered by that treaty. Pressure should have been exercised on both sides including the consent of the Belgians to a general independence of the Congo while continuing their technical aid. President Eisenhower, however, was of a different opinion and Mr. Macmillan followed him in an appeal to the U.N. Now what is the U.N.? The U.N. is men like Hammarskjold and Dayal and also troop contingents from Nasser or Ghana. The result of the U.N. action was not the re-establishment of order but rather more disorder than before.
[Page 294]However, the situation is getting somewhat better at present. There is a slight improvement. It seems that the Congolese want to create a real government under Kasavubu with a Parliament and an Army. They can, however, get little help from the U.N. and it would be better for them to be helped by the three powers mentioned above or even those three powers plus Belgium. The situation is not lost, especially if such a direct contact may be established. There is no evolution toward Communism. Of course, there is Gizenga but the people do not seem to follow in the direction of Communism and will not if they receive help.
The situation in Angola, however, is more serious. The President asked if General De Gaulle would have preferred a tripartite intervention rather than an intervention by the U.N.
General De Gaulle answered that two interventions would not have had the same character and there would have been no question of a military intervention by the three powers but rather a pressure on the Congolese, including Lumumba (who at that time had not yet decided to throw his lot with the Communists). If the Belgians had carried out the agreement between the two countries, means could have been found to obtain a cooperation between them and even for preventing the Belgians from what they had attempted in Katanga and making them generally recognize the independence of the Congo without withdrawing their technicians who are necessary for the life of the country.
[Here follows discussion of other matters.]
- Source: Department of State, Conference Files: Lot 66 D 110, President’s Visit to France, 5/31-6/2/61. II. MEMCONS. Secret. Drafted by Glenn. The conversation took place at the Elysee Palace. President Kennedy visited France and met with President Charles de Gaulle May 31-June 2, 1961. Their discussions were recorded in eight memoranda of conversation. (Ibid.)↩