Foreign Relations of the United States, 1961–1963, Volume III, Vietnam, January–August 1963

208. Memorandum of a Conversation¹

Washington, July 5, 1963.

SUBJECT

• Current Situation in Viet-Nam

PARTICIPANTS

• George W. Ball, Under Secretary
• Frederick E. Nolting, Jr., American Ambassador to Viet-Nam
• Chalmers B. Wood, Director,WG/VN
• George S. Springsteen (U)

Ambassador Nolting opened with a review of the Buddhist situation which he characterized as serious. He regretted that Diem had not taken it in hand earlier, but emphasized that Diem had given his word that the agreement would be carried out. It was Nolting’s experience that when Diem gave his word, he followed through although sometimes it was handled in his own way.

In reply to a question from the Under Secretary as to the future course of events, the Ambassador replied that although interference by the Nhus was serious, he believed that the GVN would be able to come through this one slowly. As to tactics, the more Diem was prodded the slower he went. While Nhu was troublesome he was chiefly responsible for gains which had been made in the provincial pacification program.

Giving a characterization of Mme. Nhu, Ambassador Nolting said that she was authoritarian to her finger tips, violently nationalistic and an attractive woman who was both glib and intolerant. She considered herself a most important person in her own right since she was head of the Women’s Solidarity Movement. Her manner was her worst drawback.

The Under Secretary asked what would happen if there were a change in government. The Ambassador replied that he would give his view which was not completely shared by Mr. Wood. In his view if a revolution occurred in Viet-Nam which grew out of the Buddhist situation, the country would be split between feuding factions and the Americans would have to withdraw and the country might be lost to the Communists. This led to the question of how much pressure we could exert on Diem. Mr. Nolting replied that if we repudiated him on this issue his government would fall. The Ambassador believed that Diem would live up to the agreement unless he believed that he was dealing with a political attempt to cause his overthrow.

As to the role of the Catholics in the Government, Ambassador Nolting did not believe that Diem gave them preference. Unfortunately, many persons in the government felt that it would help their careers if they became Catholic. It was true that the Government had been unwise in the ostentatious manner in which it supported and encouraged the publicizing of Catholic ceremonies, however. In general, Viet-Nam had been a country in which there was a great degree of religious tolerance. Now the situation seemed out of hand. It was deplorable because we had been winning.

Speaking of relations between the USSR and Communist China, the Ambassador added that if there were a political collapse in Viet-Nam and the U.S. had to withdraw, the Chinese would say that this proved that the right way to expand Communism was to use force.

The Under Secretary inquired whether there was any one person around whom conflicting groups in Viet-Nam might coalesce in the event of Diem’s disappearance from the scene. Ambassador Nolting replied that Vice President Tho, a Buddhist, would be the best person, but would be opposed by Nhu. The Under Secretary said that everyone agreed that the Ambassador had done a “swell job” in Viet-Nam. The Ambassador thanked the Under Secretary and said he had been pleased to have been able to speak to the Council on Foreign Relations in New York. The discussion seemed to have gone well and the questions had been friendly.

Turning to the appointment of Ambassador Lodge, Mr. Nolting commented that the more Lodge was built up as a strong man who was going to tell Diem where to get off, the harder it would be for Lodge to do his job in Viet-Nam.

The Under Secretary suggested that Ambassador Nolting could reassure President Diem on this point.

1. Source: Department of State, Secretary’s Memoranda of Conversation: Lot 65 D 330, July 1963. Secret. Drafted by Wood and approved in U on July 18. The meeting was held in the Department of State. Also printed in Pentagon Papers: Gravel Edition, Vol. II, pp. 728-729.