Foreign Relations of the United States, 1958–1960, Eastern Europe; Finland; Greece; Turkey, Volume X, Part 2

90. Memorandum of Conversation⁰

Washington, October 14, 1959.

SUBJECT

• U.S.-Polish Relations and Other Matters of Interest

PARTICIPANTS

• United States
  • Vice President Nixon
  • Mr. Klein—Vice President’s Office
  • Mr. Glenn—LS
• Poland
  • Minister of Agriculture Ochab
  • Ambassador Spasowski

The Vice President greeted Mr. Ochab and asked him about his trip.

Mr. Ochab said that the trip was not easy because there were so many things to see; it was however, most interesting and useful and he expressed his thanks to the United States Government for having made it possible.

The Vice President said it was indeed difficult to see such a large country in such a small time.

Mr. Ochab said that this was true, that the Vice President’s time in Poland¹ was also limited but, nevertheless, that such visits contribute to the development of mutual relations and that the memory of the Vice President’s visit in Poland will be cherished for a long time.

The Vice President agreed on the importance of exchanges. He himself has gained a better understanding of a situation in which he is greatly interested since he was one of the first ones to urge the extension to Poland of certain forms of aid; in particular under PL 480. Such aid is important from the economic point of view and also as an expression of the historic friendship of the United States towards Poland.

Minister Ochab stated that he was aware of the part played by the Vice President and he thanked him for it. Mutual understanding is needed also in questions of other than economic nature. In so far as the feelings of the Polish people toward the United States are concerned, the welcome given to the Vice President in Poland is an expression of them. Mr. Ochab expressed the hope that an improvement in mutual understanding will remove the remaining obstacles in the path of the cooperation between the two nations. Mutual visits also make clear the meaning of the suffering of Poland during the World War. Understanding this suffering makes it in turn easier to understand why Poland takes certain political positions.

The Vice President said that his reputation is one of a man who speaks his mind. He certainly spoke with Mr. Gomulka with the greatest frankness. The fact that the conversations with Mr. Gomulka showed that there existed differences of opinion on a number of points was perhaps less important than the fact that these differences of opinion could be discussed in a frank and reasonable manner. It is not probable that there ever will come a time when the thinking of the two nations will be entirely identical but this shall not be an obstacle to their friendship.

Mr. Ochab agreed with this point of view.

The Vice President asked what were the most important economic questions according to Mr. Ochab.

Mr. Ochab said that the most important problem in Poland is to insure a development of agriculture which would go hand in hand with the development of industry. In particular, Poland suffers from the exiguity of most of its farms and there is no possibility of increasing the average size of farms without finding jobs in industry for farmers.

The Vice President stated that the situation of agriculture differed from one country to another. There may, however, be some areas in which the experience of one country may be of use to other countries.

Minister Ochab agreed with this point of view. Polish agriculture is making progress. It is, however, way behind the United States from the point of view of productivity and the efficient use of human labor. The Polish delegation, however, feels that it has learned much which could be applied in Poland. Poland has a population which is increasing and wishes to see the standards of living of its population increase. In consequence, it needs to industrialize because it cannot depend on exports of foodstuffs, more and more of which are needed at home. The difficulty is the situation in the investment field. This is a point which he had discussed with people in the specialized departments and he would not wish to impress the subject on the Vice President.

The Vice President said that economic questions as well as other questions are of great interest to him since his responsibility is broader than that of any one department. Industrial development is necessary, but some countries have made the mistake of trying to expand industry alone and forgetting agriculture.

Mr. Ochab said that Poland also had made this mistake in the past. At present, however, the Polish Government tries to encourage both types of development simultaneously by investing in both of them. This, however, is not easy. A development of exchanges between the two countries would be helpful to Poland in increasing the possibilities of investment. Obstacles, some of which were of a political nature, would still have to be surmounted.

The Vice President said that he would come back to a subject of conversation which had taken up much of the time in the exchange he had with Mr. Gomulka and that is the question of Western Germany. The Vice President expressed a strong feeling that the intents of Chancellor Adenauer towards Poland were not aggressive. He understood, of course, the type of feeling which might be induced in Poland by the history of the Polish-German relations. The situation, however, was no longer the same as it had been. The Vice President referred to a speech by Chancellor Adenauer on the occasion of the twentieth anniversary of the German aggression against Poland. The reaction of the Polish Government amounted to a rejection of Mr. Adenauer’s speech. The Vice President said that although he did not expect to change Mr. Ochab’s opinion on those matters in the course of a brief conversation, he would not wish to let the opportunity escape him without stating that it is his conviction that Chancellor Adenauer spoke in good faith and that he honestly regrets the excesses of the Nazis. The Vice President said also that he believed that there would be possibilities of agreement between the two countries in the future.

Mr. Ochab said that he was basing his own opinions on the experience of a thousand years of German aggressions against Poland. He shared the Vice President’s opinion that the situation in Germany had changed and that Chancellor Adenauer did not have a policy identical with that of his predecessors. However, he couldn’t help wondering why is it that the German Government does not wish to state frankly to its citizens that the borders between the two countries are permanent and that the question of borders should be considered closed. Is it because the West German Government intends to mislead the German youth and keep alive feelings of enmity? He also expressed the concern of the Polish Government at Chancellor Adenauer’s acceptance of the dignity of a Commander of the Order of the Teutonic Knights of the Cross, which had been one of the principal organs of German aggression and which certainly cannot be considered as a purely religious organ since it had used religion as a cloak for its aggressions. Mr. Ochab repeated it would be good if the United States used its influence in Germany to urge the settlement of this question in order to brake German militarism. The situation in Germany appeared quite good also after World War I. However, we must remember what happened later.

The Vice President said that he understood the tendency to look up to history for lessons, but that we should not forget also that certain things which were possible in the past are no longer possible in the present and that this would undoubtedly affect the development of the situation.

Mr. Ochab agreed with this point of view.

The Vice President asked Mr. Ochab what were the reactions in Poland to Mr. Khrushchev’s visit in the United States.²

Mr. Ochab said that Polish public opinion was undoubtedly favorably impressed with the visit. He had been away from Poland for quite some time and had not heard precisely. However, he is convinced that the visit was useful since a better understanding between the United States and the Soviet Union was of a great order of importance to the entire world and to Poland in particular. Poland does not have the global responsibilities which are those of the two great powers but it has a particular understanding of the need for peace.

The Vice President said that Mr. Ochab suggested that the United States might try to act as a brake on certain German elements. If, as he believes, the Soviet Union has a good understanding of the need for peace, the Soviet Union should act as a brake on certain moves by Communist China. It is necessary that everyone should understand clearly that force is no longer something which can be used in international relations. This should include Communist China. It would be an act of irresponsibility on the part of the two great powers if each of them did not try to convince all those with whom it maintains contacts of the impossibility of the use of force.

Minister Ochab said that the Vice President had raised one of the most difficult problems of international affairs. Poland does not have global responsibilities and its influence is limited. However, there are exchanges of points of view between Poland and the leaders of the People’s Republic of China. The latter expressed the concern of their people about such things as the presence of the American Fleet in Chinese waters and the question of representation in the United Nations. They fully understand the need for peace but they cannot acquiesce to Taiwan being separated from the national territory of China. The Chinese are a proud people with several thousands of years of history and a bitter experience with colonialism. This opinion is shared by the Chinese people as well as the Chinese Government. Mr. Ochab is, however, convinced of the peaceful intentions of the latter and believes that obstacles in the relations between the United States and China should be removed step by step.

The Vice President said that certainly no solution to this problem was expected in one conversation. However, he wants to point out that while it is clear that Germany may not try to use force in an attempt to recover the so-called lost territories, force cannot be used anywhere else on the face of the globe. The use of force in the Pacific would have the same results as a use of force in Europe. Another Korea, whether it would take place in Korea, or in Formosa, or in Laos, or anywhere else would lead to a world war. The use of force is obsolete everywhere and all governments must understand it.

Mr. Ochab said that it is not possible to arrive at an identity of points of view immediately but that time would help in a gradual rapprochement. There are also some other questions on which the two governments do not see eye to eye such as, for instance, the question of the election to the Security Council. We can hope, however, that history will consider the recent moves in international affairs as the beginning of an era of good relations and that it would be grateful to President Eisenhower, Vice President Nixon and the Soviet leaders for their undertakings. Where there is desire for friendship, there is hope.

The Vice President said that there are a few points on which he wished to insist. First, that he expressed both his own feelings and those of the American people when he said that this country does not want war. Secondly, that in spite of certain differences of opinion there are enough historical ties between the United States and Poland to hope for further cooperation between the governments, between the peoples, in the economic field and elsewhere.

Mr. Ochab thanked the Vice President and said to what point he had been touched by the proofs that the American people are conscious of the historical bonds with Poland, which is proven by the presence in Washington of monuments to Polish heroes Kosciuszko and Pulaski. He himself wished to assure the Vice President of the friendship of the Polish leaders and the Polish people. Mr. Ochab requested the Vice President to transmit his greetings to the President and, upon a similar request from the latter, assured him he would transmit his greetings to Mr. Gomulka and the other Polish leaders.

0. Source: Department of State, Central Files, 033.4811/10–1459. Confidential. Drafted by Glenn.
1. See Document 73.
2. Khrushchev visited the United States September 15–27, 1959; see Part 1, Documents 108–139.