Foreign Relations of the United States, 1958–1960, Eastern Europe; Finland; Greece; Turkey, Volume X, Part 2

87. Memorandum of Conversation⁰

Washington, October 14, 1959.

SUBJECT

• Call by Polish Minister of Agriculture on the Secretary

PARTICIPANTS

• Edward Ochab, Polish Minister of Agriculture
• The Secretary
• Others Present:
  • Romuald Spasowski, Polish Ambassador
  • Marian Dobrosielski, Counselor of Polish Embassy
  • EE—Albert W. Sherer, Jr.
  • LS—Edmund S. Glenn, Interpreter

In welcoming Minister Ochab the Secretary referred to his recent conversation with Polish Foreign Minister Rapacki¹ and said that he had enjoyed meeting one of Mr. Ochab’s colleagues in the Cabinet. Mr. Ochab replied that Rapacki was indeed a Cabinet colleague but more important they were also closely associated in the Party leadership. For this reason Mr. Ochab would not discuss with the Secretary all of the questions which had already been covered by Foreign Minister Rapacki.

Exchange of Persons

Mr. Ochab said that he wanted first to express his sincere thanks to the Secretary for the invitation he had received to visit this country. He said that the trip had been extremely interesting and worthwhile although somewhat fatiguing in view of the crowded schedule. Mr. Ochab expressed the hope that there could be more exchanges between the US and Poland. The Secretary stated that he agreed completely that such exchanges were of value and agreed that there should be more of them. Ochab continued that he would soon report to the Polish Government on certain specific matters concerning his trip and he would certainly emphasize the very friendly atmosphere he had encountered in the US. He said this friendly feeling toward Poland was not only demonstrated by monuments such as the Kosciusko and Pulaski monuments in Washington but more importantly it was evidenced by the hospitable reception he had had in this country.

Polish Historical Experience

Ochab then turned to political subjects and described how during the French Revolution, in the 1830’s and again in 1939 Poland had faced superior forces and had been crushed by her enemies. Poland realized that by this historic role it had given others time to prepare their defenses but the Polish people are now wary because they have been the victim too many times. The Secretary agreed that in the course of history Poland had had more than her share of misfortune resulting from her geographic position. Mr. Ochab replied that no one can change geography but that it is up to governments to affect the course of history. The Secretary said that so far as the US is concerned we have no territorial ambitions, we want all countries to develop without fear of aggression and all of our policies are adopted in accordance with this aim.

Germany and Oder-Neisse Line

Ochab said that he could speak at length about the concern felt by the Polish people for certain political moves made by the US in Western Germany. He said, however, he did not want to dwell on this point as it had been covered in Rapacki’s conversation with the Secretary. He did want to make it clear, however, that Poland wanted to keep the territory it now has and would fight to retain it if necessary. The Secretary confirmed that he had discussed the German problem with Rapacki but stated that he could not agree with the Polish point of view about German “revanchism”. The Secretary said he did not believe that such revenge sentiment exists to any marked degree in Germany and certainly there has not been one iota of indication that the Germans wish to settle the frontier problem by force. (At this point Ochab interrupted to ask if the Secretary saw any other possible way of changing the frontiers and the Secretary replied he did not.) The Secretary continued that he had the impression, although he could not speak for the Germans, that the German people will in the end settle for the boundaries as they now exist.

U.S. Policy

The Secretary said that as far as the US is concerned it would actively oppose any efforts on the part of the German Federal Republic to change by force its present territorial limits. He reminded Mr. Ochab that all of the military assistance we have given to the German Federal Republic has been extended on the clear understanding that it was designed to strengthen Western Europe against possible movement by the Soviet Union toward the West. He reminded Mr. Ochab that Western Europe has a sincere fear of this possibility and pointed out that after all there are many Russian divisions in East Germany and that there are 175 Russian divisions within easy reach of the eastern boundary of Western Europe. The military strength of Western Europe in relation to this vast power is very weak and the military strength of the German Federal Republic today is relatively inconsequential in the European picture. Mr. Ochab replied that it was difficult for him to agree with regard to the statements concerning West Germany’s military strength and of course he could not agree with the Secretary’s analysis of the danger posed by the Soviet divisions. He said that the fear in Europe today is of a Germany with 50 million people producing 25 million tons of steel and that it is not fear of the Soviet Union because it is understood that the Soviet people do not want war. The Secretary agreed that certain Europeans still have a fear of Germany but he wanted Mr. Ochab to know that we feel just as strongly as Poland that there should never be a repetition of the actions taken by the Kaiser in World War I and by Hitler in World War II. Mr. Ochab replied that he has no doubt about the peaceful intentions of the American people but that the American people did not want Hitler and he came into power. He said that he could not understand how the German people with their great cultural traditions could have voted Hitler into power and that the Poles have cause to worry about any people who have permitted the crimes which Hitler committed. He said the Polish people question the propaganda which is now being waged in Germany about the frontiers as they fear this propaganda is in preparation for war and therefore they cannot understand the policy of rearming Western Germany. The Secretary agreed that the historical contradictions in Germany are hard to explain but that the Polish fear of rearmament of the Bundeswehr should be understood in the context that any nuclear weapons which may have been placed in Germany are securely under US control and that it is contrary to our law for it to be otherwise. Mr. Ochab said he was pleased to learn that the Secretary was also thinking of this mystery of German historic contradictions and that the US was seeking in its own way to prevent the recurrence of Naziism. He expressed the hope that as conversations such as these occurred they might lead step by step to some agreement between Poland and the US concerning how we might deal with the German problem.

Further Comment on Exchange of Persons

Mr. Ochab said that his Government was very much in favor of cultural, economic, student and professor exchanges as they were confident all those who engaged in the exchanges would learn by their visits to other countries but that they would remain faithful to their own country.

Most-Favored-Nation Treatment

Mr. Ochab expressed the hope that conversations such as this could solve certain practical problems and emphasized in this connection the psychological impact in Poland were the US to grant Poland most-favored-nation treatment. He said that without MFN the Polish people felt discriminated against and therefore in deciding this problem we should think not only in commercial terms but also keep in mind the psychological impact that it would have. The Secretary replied that we do have certain practical problems such as that of nationalization claims and stated that if the claims problem could be solved he was sure that the question of most-favored-nation treatment could also be worked out.

Mr. Ochab concluded the conversation by saying that the Secretary’s words were encouraging and expressed the hope that a satisfactory solution to the claims problem could be found so that in future conversations they might have more time to spend on points of agreement rather than upon points of disagreement.

0. Source: Department of State, Secretary’s Memoranda of Conversation: Lot 64 D 199. Confidential. Drafted by Sherer and approved in S on October 20.
1. See Document 86.