251. Memorandum of Conversation0
SEGNI VISIT
SUBJECT
- NATO Problems
[Here follows the same list of participants as Document 248.]
Prime Minister Segni noted that he had recent discussions with General Norstad.1 He said that Italy was making a great effort to meet NATO requirements. In this context he was worried about the disparity between NATO and Warsaw Pact forces and wondered what comments we could make on the balance of forces. He noted that he had recently been in Turkey and that the Turks were also concerned on this score. He said he was referring particularly to modern weapons.
The Secretary said the present estimate was, that pending further development of ICBM’s, the West maintained an over-all superiority. He noted that the time might be nearing when an aggressor would have a considerable advantage. Mr. Irwin said that it was believed that our present lead would last for some time but that it was true that thereafter for a period the aggressor might have some advantage. Finally, there would come a period when either side would have the capability of destroying the other regardless of who was the aggressor.
Prime Minister Segni asked as to the probable timing of these various periods. Mr. Irwin repeated that we had a lead now and a preponderance in nuclear striking power. He said the Soviets could undoubtedly inflict substantial damage but he believed that regardless of their greatest efforts we could carry on as a nation whereas we did not think that the same was true for the Soviet Union. Therefore, he believed we had a considerable period of time in which to undertake negotiations and perhaps reach disarmament agreements, etc.
Prime Minister Segni said that General Norstad indicated that IRBM’s were still required in Europe and wondered what our comment was on this. Mr. Irwin said that indeed this need did remain and we were appreciative of Italian cooperation in this field.
Mr. Pella then asked with regard to U.S. views on certain ideas of Mr. Spaak on the establishment of NATO political committees. He said [Page 560] he was thinking of regional committees for areas outside of NATO, such as Africa, the Middle East and the Far East. He said he believed that Spaak would raise this at the December meeting and would suggest that those with interest in these areas might join the appropriate committees. It was not clear whether he was referring to an expansion of committees already existing or of some new initiative. Pella said that Italy was generally favorable to Spaak’s ideas but hoped that the present consultative machinery in NATO would remain untouched.
The Secretary asked if Italy was anxious regarding tripartite consultation as raised in the de Gaulle memorandum.2 Mr. Straneo confirmed that this was the case. Mr. Murphy said that this problem of tripartitism stems from General de Gaulle’s memorandum of last year. He said that we were always happy to consult members of NATO but did not want to institutionalize these consultations. Therefore we agreed with the Italian view; we believed that consultation should fall within the present framework of NATO and not damage it. The Secretary noted that we were glad to confer in NATO on any subject. Mr. Murphy added that we did not wish to set up mechanisms which would damage the over-all structure of NATO. Pella said that he agreed with the U.S. line and would follow it during the meeting on October 13 and 14 of the Foreign Ministers Community of Six. At that time Italy would agree to the examination of certain political problems of the Common Market family, but would oppose any alteration of the NATO framework.
The Secretary said he was glad to hear this as we had been a little concerned that the discussions of political problems in the Six might become institutionalized and might become a grouping within NATO of the kind which we have tried to avoid. Pella confirmed that Italy did not favor the establishment of groupings within NATO. He said that the Six would not invade the political framework of NATO and that the Italians would only discuss certain questions involved in building up integration in Europe.
The meeting concluded, to be resumed at 3:30 on October 2.
- Source: Department of State, Conference Files: Lot 64 D 560, CF 1490. Secret. Drafted by McBride and approved in S on October 14. See also Documents 248–250.↩
- These discussions apparently took place during Segni’s September 3 visit to Paris for NATO meetings.↩
- Regarding the September 17 de Gaulle memorandum and tripartite consultations, see Documents 45 ff.↩