Foreign Relations of the United States, 1958–1960, Volume III, National Security Policy; Arms Control and Disarmament, Microfiche Supplement

504. Memorandum of Conference with the President¹

Washington, October 27, 1959

OTHERS PRESENT

• Mr. McCone, General Goodpaster

Mr. McCone said that he had spent nine days in the Soviet Union on the inspection of their peaceful atomic activities. The Soviets had kept him going constantly. He had five top AEC scientists with him. Mrs. McCone also accompanied him.

He said he had visited the ice breaker Lenin and had been taken out for a five-hour trip on it. The President asked what the scientists said about its power plant, recalling that Admiral Rickover, on his return, had said that it is not very advanced and advised the JCAE that we should therefore hold back on giving submarine information to our allies, lest it leak to the Russians. Mr. McCone said that the scientists told him that the Lenin power plant was excellent. The ship is splendidly built in every detail. He said there is some indication the Soviets are not doing so well with the power plants on their submarines.

Mr. McCone then said that he was taken through six atomic institutes or laboratories. Generally their power program appears to be behind ours, and has been cut back markedly from their own schedules. He was told that they have slowed down in order to see how the first few plants do, and take advantage of what they can learn from them. He said their work on controlled thermonuclear fusion is very good and that they have acted very fast in this field whenever decisions are taken. They are essentially following our course, and characteristically building on a larger scale the things we are building first on a smaller scale. In the area of high energy physics, they are showing a lot of activity. This is a very expensive field, and he found opinion among them that the nations of the world could advantageously get together on this in order to save costly duplication.

He said their level of competence in nuclear matters is quite high, their scientists are good, and started work quite early in this field. Their work began in the late twenties and early thirties and has carried on since. It is quite clear that their accomplishments are by no means attributable to “stealing our secrets,” although they may have gained marginal advantage from time to time on specific details in this way.

The Soviets treat their scientists extremely well, giving them various incentives, and various special things such as houses, added income, etc. The scientists have direct access to Khrushchev when required. Their plan of organization in the scientific field is very good. It is built around their Academy of Science, which has shown itself able to do things very fast and to focus attention on selected objects. At the present time top quality scientists are in atomic and missile activities, and their very best scientists are in the field of space. Repeatedly they have shown that they can do things in a fraction of the time we take—one-fifth to one-third is by no means unusual.

Mr. McCone said that he noticed that they are using some Red Army soldiers on construction work. He was told that where they do this they pay these individuals the difference between soldiers’ pay and the pay of construction people. He said their instrumentation and electronics are very good. He did not see their computers or have a chance to observe their computer techniques directly, but they must be quite excellent in view of the results they are achieving.

He said he looked for any evidence relating to a nuclear-powered aircraft, and could only conclude that they are carrying it at the level of a research rather than a development or prototype program.

In summarizing regarding peaceful uses of atomic energy, he said he thought their level of effort is roughly comparable to ours. They are not as far advanced as we are in any area. He sees no sign of any “break through” unless it might be in a highly secret aircraft project.

He said he is laying out a comparable schedule for Dr. Yemelyanov when he comes to the United States. He said that Yemelyanov wants to go further in the exchange of information than we have yet gone. Mr. McCone said that he had had Mr. Garthoff of CIA in his party and was confident he had obtained a great deal of information. He said the party went to the Ukraine, to Krivoi Rog. He was told he was the first American that had ever been there. He visited a uranium ore mine there. Also, he was taken into a mill where metal is extracted from the ore. He was told that he was the first foreigner that had ever been there. No visitor even from the satellites had previously been permitted in. Mr. McCone said that he asked for statistical information concerning their output. This was not available but Yemelyanov said he would bring it to him when he comes to the United States.

Mr. McCone then talked about the possible next phase in this field of activity. He thought that there could be exchange visits of our scientists to their non-secret installations and vice versa. The President suggested putting a few scientists in each other’s plants to work there for up to a year or so. Mr. McCone thought a year might be rather long but that six months might be feasible. He commented that there are some places where we could not have them for more than a visit, because they would be in too close association with our people who are in secret activities. In addition, the President thought we could jointly build some new facilities—such as those involved in high energy physics. Mr. McCone said the Russians have indicated they desire to do this as a possible third step. The President said this whole project looked good to him and asked Mr. McCone to talk to the State Department about it. He thought such facilities could perhaps be built in Vienna near the IAEA.

Mr. McCone said he did not, on his visit, see anyone outside of scientific or atomic figures. The President asked him to talk to the State Department with the thought of bringing Yemelyanov in to see him, so that the President could question him as to what he thought he had learned or accomplished through the visit. Perhaps the fact that this is an action which does not simply reciprocate what Mr. McCone did in Russia will have some impact.

The President said he understood the Dutch feel that we are dragging our feet regarding their request for information and assistance in building a nuclear submarine. He said there is no finer group than the Dutch in NATO. Mr. McCone said the problem is that the French will demand this when we have given it to the Dutch. The President said that he didn’t mind this, since we could make clear to the French that the reason we are not giving them the same information and assistance is that their cooperation in NATO has not justified it. Mr. McCone said that if the Dutch would purchase the submarine, or even the power plant, rather than obtaining the information and building it themselves, the problem would not be too difficult. It would help us if they would wait a while for the information. He said he would try to work the matter out with State, adding that his fellow Commissioners and the JCAE are very tough on this question.

Mr. McCone said he had also stopped in Great Britain and that Lord Plowden will be here next month. The President asked Mr. McCone to be sure to bring him in. Mr. McCone said he had talked with Mr. Macmillan regarding the problem of testing. Mr. Macmillan said he was ready to have an agreement limited to the banning of atmospheric testing, provided there was a gentleman’s understanding that underground testing would also be stopped unilaterally. The President said he wants very much to stop testing, but he cannot see how unilateral cessation would be acceptable. He did not know how he could gain the assurance that he thinks we would need.

Mr. McCone said that in the mine in the Ukraine that he visited there were a dozen places where a one to two kiloton weapon could be set off without our ever knowing it. Through such tests they could move into a “death ray” type of weapon. The President expressed his interest about this type of weapon, asking as to its range of effectiveness. Mr. McCone said that it is effective over a radius of 1500–2000 yards. Blast effect is so localized as to be almost negligible. High-energy radiation would kill anyone within that radius. There would be no fall-out under one design and very limited fall-out under the other. I told the President we had some information on this and would get it to him.

Mr. McCone said the British would like to work out a long-range plan for the purchase of U–235 from us. Their plant is very expensive and they would like to close it down. Regarding atomic power plants, the President said he thought the best course would be to build no more plants for a while, to wait for improvements to come along through research, and to gain experience. Mr. McCone said we are studying various future lines of possible development. To follow any single line will cost in the order of $350 to $500 million to bring it to a stage of producing competitive power. This is a most important study, now well advanced, and he expects it to cut down on the number of alternative concepts under consideration and development. The President said one trouble is that the scientists get many ideas and then tend to want to carry them all along much too far. It is desirable to cut down unpromising lines of effort earlier.

Mr. McCone said that he was taught a lesson by the Soviet Academy of Science. They move their people around very readily, and thereby channel energies and shorten times of development. He thought the Soviets would be ahead of us, for example, when we get to a one and one-half million pound thrust space vehicle. The President said we are trying to do many things at once, scattering our effort and spreading contracts all over rather than having someone giving direction and setting priorities.

Mr. McCone said that, following this trip, he has for the first time been thinking that it may be desirable to put the President’s Science Advisory Committee, the AEC, the NASA and certain other laboratories into one national scientific organization.

Mr. McCone finally commented that he found EURATOM disappointing in some respects. The thinking of the people is good but Europe now has a surplus rather than a shortage of conventional fuels—oil and coal—and the atomic power development is going slow. He had the impression that the EURATOM people do not consider it to be so urgent, and in this he agrees.

A.J. Goodpaster
Brigadier General, USA

1. Source: McCone’s visit to the Soviet Union; Yemelyanov visit to U.S.; Dutch request for nuclear submarine; discussion with Macmillan on nuclear testing negotiations; U.K. purchase of U–235. Secret; Restricted Data. 5 pp. Eisenhower Library, Whitman File, DDE Diaries.