Foreign Relations of the United States, 1958–1960, Volume III, National Security Policy; Arms Control and Disarmament, Microfiche Supplement

410. Memorandum of Conference with the President¹

Washington, January 16, 1959

OTHERS PRESENT

• Chairman McCone
• General Goodpaster

Mr. McCone said that Sir Edwin Plowden, who had been his host in the United Kingdom in November, is coming to the United States about 1 March for two or three days to visit atomic installations. He asked if the President would be agreeable to attending a luncheon or dinner for him. The President said he would prefer to have a stag luncheon, suggesting the date of March 2, with the British Ambassador also present.

Mr. McCone next reported to the President that the British wished to buy a substantial quantity of refined atomic materials. Defense, State and the Commission agree on the desirability of supplying them. The materials amount to some fourteen tons of plutonium, and in the longer range a contract for a supply of U–235 for the next 10–12 years (thus avoiding British necessity to build a gaseous diffusion plant) with initial acquisitions from us of the order of about fourteen tons. The British would like to pay for the plutonium (to be available in the near future) in cash, and to pay for the U–235 over a longer period with plutonium. The President asked what ratio would be used in accepting plutonium for our U–235. Mr. McCone said we are proposing a ratio of 1 to 1, and the British are proposing a ratio of 2½ to 1; he thought we could, and should, settle out for a ratio of 2 to 1. The President asked if this appeared to be a good trade from the standpoint of availability of the two products, and Mr. McCone said it is very definitely so, inasmuch as our needs for plutonium are rising, with small weapons. He added that State and Defense agree on this. The President said the proposition looked generally satisfactory to him. Mr. McCone added that there had been some talk by the British regarding obtaining weapons; this would have involved the need to seek a change in our law, which is better avoided, since problems would then arise with the French and Italians.

Mr. McCone said that, the President having approved this action, he would take it up with the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy. The President raised the question whether the Executive Branch is becoming too subservient to that Committee. Mr. McCone said that so far the relationship is satisfactory. He assured the President that he is not going to let them invade Executive prerogatives and asked the President to have confidence in him that he will not let the Joint Committee push him around. The President indicated agreement on this basis.

Mr. McCone said he would then pursue the matter of exchange with the British. The President asked that, in writing up the agreement, Mr. McCone make sure that State, Defense, Budget and the Attorney General are in concurrence. Mr. McCone said this would be done inasmuch as a change in the bilateral agreement would be necessary.

Mr. McCone next raised the matter of the new production reactor at Hanford; since his last talk with the President Defense has submitted ten-year requirements for atomic weapons. To meet the need it first seemed there would be necessity to build two new reactors in addition to the receipts from the United Kingdom. However, by raising the power level at Hanford, the need will be reduced to one reactor. The President stated strongly that he would not accept these requirements as the basis for any actions until he had seen them. Mr. McCone said that the requirements as submitted by Secretary Quarles, on the scale of 100, corresponded to a figure of 110 recommended by General Twining and between 125 and 200 recommended by the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The President said that the requirements are not authoritative until he had approved them. He challenged the Defense thinking, saying they are trying to get themselves into an incredible position—of having enough to destroy every conceivable target all over the world, plus a three-fold reserve. The patterns of target destruction are fantastic. So many ground bursts are included as to bring certain damage to the United States. He recalled that the determination for many years was that there were only seventy targets, the destruction of which would bring the Soviet Union to defeat.

Mr. McCone pointed out that we have the authority and the funds for this new reactor as a result of last year’s legislative action. The President asked if plutonium is useful for fueling power reactors. Mr. McCone indicated it had a certain usefulness but could not replace U–235. The President said he is more worried about the unrealistic attitude of our top military men than the specific proposal he was considering, and Mr. McCone acknowledged that they talk about megaton explosions as though they are almost nothing. The President asked whether, with more efficient weapons, the trend is toward using less plutonium. Mr. McCone said this trend is offset by the trend towards small and clean weapons which take more plutonium. Finally, the President said he supposed that we have to go ahead with the construction of the reactor. Mr. McCone pointed out that he has not funded the convertible feature; he is trying to get that out of the proposal. He had had this studied by Stone and Webster, and they had recommended against it. The President said he is against the convertible feature. By the time we were ready to make use of that, he was confident that our technology would be advanced so far that we would no longer want to use this particular model. He asked Mr. McCone to try to get this provision out.

Mr. McCone then turned to the subject of power reactors. Four or five big ones are now being built. The electricity being produced by them will run 12–18 mills per kilowatt hours, in cost. In Mr. McCone’s view, best progress will be found through testing out a lot of technology in prototypes; he doesn’t want to build big plants, but would like to build four or five small ones to prove out and advance the art. At the present time the Government gives R & D assistance and waives fuel costs. The prototypes should be on existing power lines and should be built by power companies. He proposed that we give them some assistance on capital costs on a few prototypes but that we not help on large plants. For our own economy, with but few exceptions, we do not need atomic energy power in the foreseeable future. But to keep the United States in the race industrially and internationally we do need to carry out development, and this would be a good program for the purpose. The President asked what kind of money would be involved. Mr. McCone said he did not know precisely. He is trying to work this out. A prototype producing 50,000 kilowatts, costing about $8 million, seemed to be in the order of magnitude. He said he was talking only in a preliminary way at this time, but that he had received an excellent report, in which Mr. James Black as well as others had participated. The President said he was a little disturbed over the suggestion, since it seemed to be another venture in the direction of public power, and was fearful that Congress would want to put these power plants into the TVA and Bonneville systems. Mr. McCone thought that by having this program with the President’s support it would be possible to head off this tendency. He said he had talked to Mr. Stans about the matter, and that Mr. Stans had no objection.

Mr. McCone next recalled that the President had pushed the IAEA from the outset, and had offered them 5,000 kg. of U–235. A price had never been set; however, the law provides that it cannot be less than the domestic price. The Soviets, who have made no offer of their own, have been doing a great deal of criticizing on the grounds that we are seeking to make a profit. Mr. Cole wants the price to be no more than the domestic price. Mr. McCone recommended that the matter be settled by fixing the price at the domestic price, which meets the law and also meets Mr. Cole’s suggestion. The President said he saw nothing wrong with that.

Mr. McCone next told the President he wanted to demonstrate to him a technical breakthrough in the production of power from atomic sources. At this point he had General Keirn, Colonel Armstrong and Colonel Anderson set up a device for the generation of electricity, by means of thermocouples, from heat provided by an alpha-emitting radioactive isotope (of polonium, although cerium is planned for future models). This device, weighing five pounds, was operating at the level of five watts of power. The output would drop to one-half of this figure in 138 days for a polonium source and approximately 280 days for cerium, these periods being the “half life” of these radioactive elements. While the production of the current model cost $15,000 for the device, plus approximately $30,000 for the polonium, the future practical models are expected to decline in cost to approximately $200 for the device and $600 for the cerium power source; weight can be reduced from five pounds to approximately three pounds.

The immediate application of this device is as a power source in a satellite. The best possible batteries to provide a similar amount of power over a similar period would weigh 300 times as much as this device. However, one of the most striking features is that these thermocouples, employing different “doped” telluride compounds, have attained an efficiency of 8–10% in converting heat to electric energy with no moving parts. Any other heat source could also be used and small atomic reactors, as little as six inches on a side, are being developed as power sources for future applications.

The President was extremely interested in all of this. After thorough discussion of the matter, photographs were taken, and at the President’s request Mr. Hagerty arranged for General Keirn and his associates to meet with the press and explain the device to them.

A.J. Goodpaster
Brigadier General, USA

1. Source: U.S.–U.K. nuclear cooperation, Department of Defense plutonium requirements, domestic nuclear power, thermocouples to power satellites, sales of U–235 to IAEA. No classification marking. 5 pp. Eisenhower Library, Whitman File, DDE Diaries.