193. Memorandum of a Conversation, Ambassador Lodge’s Residence, Madrid, November 1, 19551



  • Minister of Foreign Affairs, Martin Artajo
  • Under Secretary of Foreign Affairs, Marques de Santa Cruz
  • Minister Rolland, Chief of the Diplomatic Cabinet
  • Aurelio Valls, Interpreter
  • Secretary of State, John Foster Dulles
  • Ambassador Lodge
  • Assistant Secretary Merchant
  • Assistant Secretary McCardle
  • Homer M. Byington, Deputy Chief of Mission

Spanish-French Relations

The Minister of Foreign Affairs referred to this morning’s conversation between the Secretary of State and General FRANCO with regard to Morocco. The Secretary replied that he wished to emphasize what he said this morning to General FRANCO. He felt that Foreign Minister Pinay represented a sound element in France, that he was reliable, strongly anti-Communist, and that he was sincere. The present French program for Morocco was in the best interest of both France and Spain. He appreciated recent difficulties between the two countries and, in fact, had been told that the Communists in France were behind stories alleging Spain’s intervention through the furnishing of arms to the Nationalists. He said he wanted to compliment the Minister upon his effort towards ameliorating relations between France and Spain and he urged that both countries should take up again the work that they had previously successfully embarked upon towards friendship and understanding between them. He mentioned his conversation with Mr. Pinay the other evening and the possibility of a visit to Spain on the part of the French Foreign Minister. The Secretary said he believed Mr. Pinay offered Spain its best opportunity for a real understanding.

Mr. Martin Artajo said that when he had talked to Mr. Pinay, the question of a visit by the latter had come up but nothing definite was settled. He said the Spaniards were offended by the unjustified attacks and charges against Spain during the recent Moroccan crisis. He agreed that these stories may have been to a considerable extent Communist inspired but to achieve real friendship there had to be constructive moves on the part of the French as well as the Spaniards. He mentioned the 300,000 Spanish refugees from Spain now in France, presumably financed by the Soviet Union, who continue by means of their own radio daily attacks against Spain and who constantly connive politically against the Spanish Government. The Secretary pointed out that this was hardly surprising since both in France and in Italy the Governments permitted French and Italian Communist Parties to do the same thing against the French and Italian Governments. The Spanish Foreign Minister said that it was all very well for the French to put up with their own Communist Party but to harbor the Communist Party of a supposedly friendly nation was not the same [Page 556] thing at all. There was some further discussion and an apparent reaching of the minds on the desirability of closer relations between France and Spain, and the similarity of their interests in North Africa.

Spanish Application for Membership in United Nations

Minister Martin Artajo then mentioned the conversation he had had with the Secretary in the automobile en route from the Pardo (which was the continuation of a similar discussion in which General FRANCO raised the question of UN membership for Spain). He said that the Spanish Government was very sensitive on this point. It had withheld any action towards applying for membership until we had encouraged them to do so. (As instructed by the Department, Ambassador Lodge suggested at San Sebastian last summer Spanish apply for membership.) They had found that regardless of the support which they expected to receive from the Arab nations they had the strongest kind of practically unanimous support from the Latin American countries. Even with encouragement from Latin American countries they would not have put in their application if they had not believed and been told that the great and friendly power, the United States, was behind them. He urged that the Secretary consider the value of such States as Italy, Ireland, Portugal and Spain in the United Nations as compared to the admission of satellite nations whom no one would take seriously as independent nations. In the UN Spain could help the United States.

The Secretary said that we should consider the effect in those satellite states of their being admitted into the United Nations. He had had reports from some quarters that the people of such States as Hungary and Roumania were so dejected at the present time that the sight of the United States voting for the admission into the United Nations of the very regimes that oppressed them would be the final blow. He said that we were concerned, just as Spain was, in opposing Communism, and that an act of approval such as the United States endorsing membership of these satellites in the United Nations might have very bad results.

The Minister pointed out that in the beginning we had approved the admission of Poland and Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. The Secretary replied that it was not known at the time that these countries would be Communist satellites. Mr. Martin Artajo reiterated his plea that the United States should not now abandon Spain in a package arrangement. He said the reaction among Spanish people to the United States opposing an arrangement whereby Spain’s application for membership could be approved, would be widespread and very strong indeed. The Spanish people had very little use of the world’s wealth but they did have their pride and a rebuff of this kind would create an enormous resentment. He repeated again that if they had not [Page 557] felt sure of the United States support the Spanish Government would not at our suggestion have initiated its application. He apologized for speaking heatedly but this was a fundamental and important matter between our two countries. The Secretary said he was glad that the Minister had spoken frankly and he had come to Madrid and made this trip in order to hear his views. The United States was doing and would continue to do all they could to support Spain’s application. This was not the matter in point. We also had to consider, however, all of the other factors involved.

Ambassador Lodge pointed out that the United States still supported Spanish application for membership, as it did at the time we had suggested that they apply. There had been no change. The Secretary agreed with this remark and said that our friendly support for the Spanish application is not in question. The meeting broke up rather hurriedly because of the need for the Secretary to meet the scheduled departure at the airport.

  1. Source: Department of State, Conference Files: Lot 60 D 627, CF 609. Top Secret. Drafted by Byington on November 9.