Lot 60–D 224, Box 56: D.O./Conv.A/JSC Mins. 13–18
Informal Minutes of Meeting No. 14 of the Joint Steering Committee Held at 10:30 a.m., September 13, at Dumbarton Oaks
| Present: | Sir Alexander Cadogan and Mr. Jebb of the British group; |
| Ambassador Gromyko, Mr. Sobolev, and Mr. Berezhkov of the Soviet group; | |
| Mr. Stettinius, Mr. Dunn, and Mr. Pasvolsky of the American group. | |
| Mr. Hiss also present, as secretary. |
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
At this point, Ambassador Gromyko said that on the basis of instructions received from his Government his position on the question of voting in the Council is unchanged. Mr. Stettinius asked whether it was likely that the instructions to which the Ambassador had referred represented the final word on this subject so far as the Soviet Government is concerned. The Ambassador said that this was the case. He went on to say that in the Soviet opinion the American and British proposal as to voting in the Council would violate the principle of unanimity. He said that the Soviet Government considers that this principle has from the beginning of negotiations relating to an international organization been a matter of very greatest importance.
Mr. Stettinius, in reply, said that the American Government attaches overriding importance to the acceptance of its proposal on this point. He said that, as the President had informed Ambassador Gromyko, it is very difficult to see how the American public, the world public, the American Senate, and the small nations throughout the world could accept a proposal by which a party to a dispute should vote. He said that the Ambassador’s statement came as a great disappointment and as a great blow. He said that the Soviet position might very easily mean that, because of the anticipated reaction of the smaller powers, no general conference on the subject could ever be held. Ambassador Gromyko said that the desire of the small nations is to live in peace and security and for this purpose their primary desire is that there be created an effective security organization.
Mr. Stettinius went on to say that the American Government simply cannot understand how any country could take the position that if it became involved in a dispute that dispute could not be brought before the Organization. Sir Alexander said that he believed that not one of the British Dominions would join the Organization if such a principle were to be adopted. Moreover, he did not believe that any of the smaller nations would join.
[Page 799]Mr. Stettinius said that at the moment he could not see that any purpose would be served by the issuance of a document from Dumbarton Oaks. Sir Alexander said that on the basis of the Soviet position the question arose as to what procedure should next be followed. He said that he did not know what to suggest in this connection and that he would have to think about the matter. Mr. Stettinius said that careful consideration must be given to the public effect of the Soviet position. He said that as Sir Alexander had stated the other day the question will necessarily arise in Parliament. He said that he himself had similarly said several days ago that the question will also come up in the American Congress. Both he and Sir Alexander had made plain that the views of each of the three powers on this matter would have to be made clear in answer to such questions. Sir Alexander said that however the matter may be regarded it is bound to be most awkward. If no statement is issued it will mean to the world that the Dumbarton Oaks conversations have failed. He said that he really did not know what would be the best thing to do under the circumstances.
At this point Mr. Stettinius asked Ambassador Gromyko whether he might appropriately inquire as to whether or not the President has received any message from Marshal Stalin. In reply, Ambassador Gromyko said that he did not know. In answer to a second inquiry by Mr. Stettinius, the Ambassador said that he thought that any reply to the President would have to come through his Embassy.
Mr. Pasvolsky said the Ambassador’s statement alters the whole situation and that we will all have to think about the possibilities. Sir Alexander said that he would have to consult Mr. Eden and that the question would be decided at a much higher level.
Mr. Stettinius then asked Ambassador Gromyko whether the Ambassador had any indication that his statement represented the final Soviet position on this point. Ambassador Gromyko replied that as he had said earlier this is the definite position of the Soviet Government. He said that on the general principle of unanimity there is no possibility of any kind of change. He went on to say that this position had been taken definitely by the Soviet group at the outset of the conversations and that on several occasions those views had been stated by him. He said that he had thought that the principle of unanimity had been the understood basis on which everyone was proceeding, that is to say, that the large countries should have a special position in the Organization by reason of the simple fact that they will bear the main responsibility for the maintenance of peace. He said that only the large countries have the necessary resources and military forces to be able to maintain peace and security. He said that he believes that the small countries accept this position and that it has in fact been taken for granted by everyone.
[Page 800]Sir Alexander Cadogan and Mr. Stettinius said that they agreed that it is generally understood that the large powers must occupy a special position and must bear the primary responsibility for the maintenance of peace. Ambassador Gromyko said that it was for that reason that he had said so confidently that the other groups had agreed to the principle of unanimity.
Mr. Stettinius said that, however, the question is different with respect to disputes. Ambassador Gromyko said that he thought it was incorrect to assume that the great powers who are responsible for peace and security are necessarily going to have disputes. He added that one can assume that their successful cooperation during this war and their struggle for security at present would undoubtedly have a great importance for the maintenance of peace and security in the future. Sir Alexander said that he thought that other countries might think otherwise.
Mr. Stettinius said that the Ambassador’s statement meant that we have reached a climax. He pointed out that there remain no other open items which cannot be promptly settled. He said that if it would be possible to find an agreed formula on this point the Committee could meet again promptly.
Mr. Pasvolsky said that consideration must now be given as to whether the type of organization envisaged in the present draft of the document is still feasible.
Ambassador Gromyko inquired whether the others thought that there would be anything warranting further discussion this afternoon. Sir Alexander thought not but Mr. Stettinius thought that possibly there might be. Ambassador Gromyko said that he would be glad to meet at anytime the others desired.
Sir Alexander said that careful thought will have to be given to what recommendations can now be made to the respective governments as to what should be done under the circumstances. Mr. Stettinius said that quite frankly he was struggling in his own mind to see what could be done.
Mr. Dunn said that he thought that that is the important point, namely, to consider what can be done. He thought that the other nations will come along with any reasonable formula upon which the three groups might agree. He said that it might be possible to consider a proposal for a different kind of an organization. He said that it might be a good idea to take a look at a draft of such a proposal.
Ambassador Gromyko then said that he felt it was not necessary to point out that the Soviet group had in the course of the conversations made a number of concessions, if the word “concessions” could appropriately be used in connection with conversations in which all are working toward common agreement. He said that on several [Page 801] matters of importance to it, the Soviet Government had made concessions because of its realization of the great importance of reaching agreement with the other groups. Other members of the Committee remarked that concessions had been made by all the participants.
Sir Alexander then said that the matter under consideration is a vital point for all the other United Nations who, it had been hoped, could be invited to a general conference. Mr. Stettinius inquired whether the other nations of the world would accept the Soviet proposal. Mr. Sobolev said that he had no doubt of this. Ambassador Gromyko said that if the four powers present the proposal unanimously he had no shadow of doubt as to the positions of the other nations. He said that he did not believe the other nations are mainly interested in the procedure of voting within the Council; they are chiefly interested in peace and in an effective organization designed to preserve peace. He said that the four powers have not failed the other nations so far and that they merit the confidence of the other nations. Mr. Sobolev said that if the British and American proposal on this point were to be accepted it would mean that the existing situation between the great powers would thereby be changed. At present all matters are decided on the basis of unanimity.
At this point Mr. Stettinius said that he would like to ask the others to consider what the result of the Soviet proposal would be in the hypothetical situation of some action taken by the United States against Mexico. He said that there would be an impossible situation if the United States in such a case were to say that it would not permit the Council to consider the matter.
Mr. Stettinius then said we must all put our minds to the question of what we can do about this matter. Sir Alexander said that the fact of disagreement will have to become public. He said the question is just how the matter should be made public. He said we could announce that no agreement has been reached at Dumbarton Oaks, in which event the point of disagreement would become known sooner or later. Alternatively, he said, we could send a draft document to the other United Nations setting forth in the document the two alternative positions on this point. This second possible means of procedure would, he thought, give a very bad impression. Mr. Stettinius said that it would be necessary to take some action promptly.
Ambassador Gromyko then said that he could not imagine how there could be a conference if the four powers are not in agreement. He thought that any statement of alternative provisions or any footnote on disagreement would cause great confusion. Sir Alexander said that the fact of disagreement would become known in any event. Mr. Stettinius said that the Senate Foreign Relations Committee would demand to see the document if the conversations ended without any publication of the document. Sir Alexander said that the [Page 802] press would invent all sorts of reasons for the failure to agree and that the real reason would soon have to become known.
Mr. Dunn said that he thought it would be better to issue a memorandum limited to those things on which agreement could be reached. He said that this might require a change in the form of the document, perhaps the document would have to be limited to an agreement simply to consult one another. Mr. Jebb said that enforcement provisions would have to be eliminated from the document if agreement were to be reached. Mr. Dunn agreed, saying that we could not expect the other United Nations to agree to all of the provisions now contained in the document. Mr. Jebb said the document would have to be quite a different one from the present draft. Mr. Dunn expressed his agreement with this view.
Mr. Jebb then said that recasting of the document along these lines would take quite some time; it could not be done in a day or two. Mr. Dunn said that he agreed and that he was thinking of a recasting of the whole form of the document.
Mr. Jebb wondered whether a recasting of the document would prove to be profitable employment of the time of the groups. Sir Alexander Cadogan said that a revised document would have to leave out the whole matter of voting and all provisions as to enforcement; it would provide merely for consultation. He said that he did not believe the world would think much of such a document.
Mr. Stettinius said that the American position could not be changed on this point and that he saw no area for concession from the American viewpoint. He said the matter has been thoroughly considered by the President, by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and by Mr. Hull. He felt that the American position is unalterable regardless of future developments. He said that he wanted Ambassador Gromyko to understand this quite thoroughly; that he did not want the Ambassador to think that there is any chance of the American position being altered. Sir Alexander said that he thought that expressed Mr. Eden’s position also. Ambassador Gromyko said that he had fully informed his Government of the British and American positions.
He said that he also wished to point out that the Soviet group is unable to agree that action by the Council should require more than a simple majority. Sir Alexander Cadogan said that he would have acceded to the Soviet position on this point if such a concession had been necessary in order to arrive at an agreement. Mr. Stettinius said that the American group had agreed to meet the Russian position on this point half way.
Sir Alexander Cadogan said that he felt Ambassador Gromyko’s position meant that four-power unanimity is in fact being abandoned. At this point Mr. Dunn said that he wanted to make a rather full statement. He said that the present situation is that the three powers [Page 803] are cooperating fully. The concept of establishing a world organization represented a new endeavor, another type of cooperation. He said that in view of the fact that the three powers are cooperating harmoniously in all cases and have every intention of continuing to cooperate in the future, he did not see why it should not be possible to draw up a document on which they could all agree. He said that it may be that such a document cannot provide for the particular machinery we have thus far had in mind. However, he felt that it is very important that we not consider that we have failed. He said that it is vastly important that these nations which are cooperating among themselves should now produce evidence that they will continue to cooperate in the future. He said that we must not allow any disagreement to creep into our relations. Sir Alexander expressed himself as in agreement with Mr. Dunn’s statement. Mr. Stettinius said that there must be no whisper that there have been any disagreements among the members of the Committee. Ambassador Gromyko said that he could give assurance that there would be no such disclosure on the part of the Soviet group.
Mr. Stettinius said that the members of the Committee must leave Dumbarton Oaks in agreement. He asked what hope there would be for future peace and security if the three nations did not remain shoulder-to-shoulder in the future as they had fought shoulder-to-shoulder in the present war. He said that this matter of continued close cooperation is a matter on which the very future of civilization depends. Sir Alexander expressed his agreement with Mr. Stettinius’ remarks but he said that consideration must be given to how the matter is to be presented publicly. He said that there is a terrible danger of speculation by the press and by others as to why no agreement along the lines previously indicated is promptly forthcoming.
Mr. Jebb said that the three groups will have to work hard and quickly. Mr. Stettinius inquired how long the others thought it would take to draw up an agreed-upon document. Mr. Dunn said that the joint formulation group has met all demands which have heretofore been made upon it. He said that it might perhaps be possible to shorten the document considerably.
At this point Mr. Stettinius asked what the others thought of the possibility of leaving the matter of voting in the Council for discussion at the general conference of the United Nations. Mr. Sobolev thought that it would not be possible to do that and Mr. Jebb also felt that that could not be done.
Mr. Stettinius then asked Ambassador Gromyko what the latter thought would be the effect of the Soviet formula on world opinion. Ambassador Gromyko replied that the effect upon the world would be the effect produced by the document as a whole. He said that he did not wish to separate the point under discussion from the rest of [Page 804] the document which contains many valuable and constructive provisions. He felt that the other countries of the world would gladly accept the document as a whole. He said that although the question of voting is important for the great powers and for the Organization it is, however, considered separately, a question of secondary importance for other nations. They are most of all interested in the effectiveness of the Organization.
Sir Alexander said he would wish to consult his Government as to the possibility of a new type of document.
Mr. Stettinius said that in adjourning the meeting he wanted it to be clearly understood that there would be no hint of any disagreement among the three groups and that the situation in fact is that all questions which have been raised remain under discussion. The other members of the Committee expressed their full agreement with these views.
Mr. Stettinius asked whether the others wished to meet again this afternoon. Ambassador Gromyko and Sir Alexander Cadogan said that they are prepared to meet at any time. The meeting was adjourned with the understanding that no definite time for the next meeting would be set but that the members of the Committee would remain subject to call by Mr. Stettinius, as chairman, and that in the meantime the joint formulation group would continue its work.