793.94/4208½
Memorandum of Trans-Atlantic Telephone Conversation52
Mr. Atherton: Hello, Mr. Secretary.
Secretary: Good-morning, Ray.
Mr. Atherton: Since I telegraphed you this morning giving the [Page 353] summary of our telephone understanding with Sir John, the tenor has considerably changed here. I have just come from the Foreign Office where Vansittart has now been informed not to present another declaration to Tokyo, as suggested in your message last night on the International Settlement. He explained the situation had changed during the day and that the League protest was probably being made tonight and would be followed up by the United States proclamation some time later in the week. Vansittart pointed out that as reported to you in my telegram No. 5953 the British Government has already protested three times against the use of the International Settlement and a similar protest was made last week making four altogether. For these reasons, Vansittart who had just come from a conference with Sir John, said the British Government deems it inexpedient to present this memorandum especially since it might take away from the League protest which is being made tonight, and the United States protest which will be made at the end of the week and it might be more expedient to prolong until next week or later reference about the damage in the International Settlement when some serious event seemed inevitable or had already occurred.
Secretary: Well, the difficulty is that he didn’t say so yesterday and, in the meanwhile, we have talked with the French and Italians.
Mr. Atherton: There have been a great many deliberations going on in London and my personal feeling today is if we get all the signatories of the Nine-Power Pact to agree to the draft of the Nine-Power proclamation she will join us, otherwise she will content herself with participation in the League appeal which goes forward tonight and then, if the United States takes independent action on the Nine-Power Pact——
Secretary: I think she has let us down. You can tell him so.
Mr. Atherton: I think we have reached a change of thought on this memorandum.
Secretary: In what way?
Mr. Atherton: There is quite a different tenor here but I think the other thing is just my own personal opinion that I have of the situation here tonight. I only give you that as my own personal interpretation, Sir.
Secretary: Yes. You can tell them that I shall very likely not submit any other note if they go ahead with the League.
Mr. Atherton: I have received and I am cabling to you now Sir John’s suggestions on the draft of the Nine-Power proclamation. I shall cable that tonight, sir, and you will get it in the course of the evening I expect.
[Page 354]Secretary: Are they making very serious changes? I shall not consider them very seriously if they are not going to join in them with us.
Mr. Atherton: I think there is a very strong feeling here that in this proclamation it would be much easier to get it through and agreed to if they left out specific reference to Manchuria and only dealt with the question that we had already drawn up—the question of Manchuria in our note of January 7—and centered this note specifically on the present Shanghai incident.
Secretary: I told Sir John yesterday that I would not be satisfied unless the note, by implication at least, covered all of China and the full Nine-Power Pact which would mean Manchuria. We were willing to tone down any specific allusion, but if it was left out altogether it would at once provoke a very adverse reaction in the press to the effect that we had given up Manchuria. Do you see?
Mr. Atherton: Yes, quite. This feeling on this particular point was that by reference to your note of January 7th you could, by implication at least, include Manchuria.
Secretary: Well, that leaves out part of the important part of the argument.
Mr. Atherton: Yes, Sir. I only submit that as his idea. Now, Mr. Secretary, this is the final paragraph of the League appeal which is being considered tonight.
Secretary: Will you read it?
Mr. Atherton: Very well, Sir. Paragraph VI. Finally, we recall the terms of Article 10 of the Covenant by which Japan, no less than every other member of the League, has undertaken to respect and preserve as against external aggression the territorial integrity and existing political independence of all members of the League. It is our friendly right to direct attention to this provision, particularly as it appears to us to follow that no invasion of the territorial integrity and no change in the political independence of any member of the League brought about in disregard of this article ought to be recognized as valid and effectual by members of the League of Nations. That is the end, Sir.
Secretary: Yes, I get that. On what do you base what you tell me now about the very important point that they are going to require all of the members of the Nine-Power Treaty to take part in it before they go in—I mean last night you said some of the Cabinet were thinking of that. Have they had a meeting of the Cabinet this morning?
Mr. Atherton: I don’t know whether they have or not. There will be two appeals going in this week; the League appeal going in tonight and the United States appeal going in later in the week. Now, in his mind, he gave me the impression that those were two separate [Page 355] appeals that were going in, Great Britain joining in the League and we in the other. That bears out the inference I had yesterday that Sir John would not make up his mind on the question of the Nine-Power Pact first, until he had a Cabinet meeting and second, until he had gone to Geneva and found out who was willing to join in the Nine-Power Pact. There have been deliberations of various sorts going on here today and I think the situation remains here for the moment in that status.
Secretary: Last night you told me substantially that he thought by going to Geneva he could get most of the Nine-Powers to go in on that.
Mr. Atherton: Yes, Sir, I still think he can do that.
Secretary: It is rather a vital point whether he would require all of the other nations of the Nine-Power Pact because that would give a veto power to any one.
Mr. Atherton: I still feel that is the question at issue.
Secretary: It is not yet settled.
Mr. Atherton: My own impression is that they would demand certain countries to join.
Secretary: Yes, I am very much obliged to you. Just let me ask you another question. What is the nature of the changes that are coming in this telegram?
Mr. Atherton: I have them right here, shall I read them?
Secretary: Well yes. Read them to me quickly.
Mr. Atherton: Paragraph IV——
Secretary: He makes no changes in I, II or III?
Mr. Atherton: No, the objections begin in Paragraph IV. In paragraph IV the British Government ventures to depreciate the prominent position given to the Manchurian aspect of the matter on the following grounds:——
Secretary: There is no mention of Manchuria in paragraph IV as I have it. He may mean Paragraph V or he may mean Paragraph III.
Mr. Atherton: No, just let me explain. In Paragraph IV he says that is the first objection and if this view is adopted paragraph III would need to be recast.
Secretary: Read Paragraph IV again.
Mr. Atherton: The British Government ventures to depreciate the prominent position given to the Manchurian aspect of the matter on the following grounds.
Secretary: Well, probably instead of four he means five because four on my paper does not even mention Manchuria.
Mr. Atherton: He is probably numbering the paragraphs according to his own system.
[Page 356]Secretary: I don’t know what that system is. Read rapidly to me what he says about four.
Mr. Atherton: [Here follows quotation by Mr. Atherton of Sir John Simon’s observations transmitted in telegram No. 69, February 16, 7 p.m., page 360.]
Secretary: Are you going to see Vansittart again?
Mr. Atherton: As you say, Sir.
Secretary: I would like you discreetly to get into his head that we should very seriously question the advisability of our going alone on this paper at all.
Mr. Atherton: Yes, Sir.
Secretary: And that, unless they are ready to go along with us without making the conditions of other associations too difficult, it may result in a complete change of our plan. In other words, it is a pretty stiff condition to ask for everybody of the Nine-Power nations. Do you get that?
Mr. Atherton: Yes, Sir, quite.
Secretary: It would mean delay and would make the thing very much less effective. On the other hand, I think it would be quite easy to get some of them. Now get that into Vansittart’s head.
Mr. Atherton: I shall get that to him right away, Sir.