793.94/4142½
Memorandum of Trans-Atlantic Telephone Conversation17
Secretary: Good-morning, Sir John, this is Stimson.
Sir John: This is Simon, how are you?
Secretary: First rate, how are you?
Sir John: We are all very well here.
Well, now, from my end I have been thinking over what you said and I am anxious that we should keep in touch as regards a possible statement or declaration. A good deal would depend upon the time of it and in the contents of the proposal because we feel, with you, that there still are left some possible ways of approach. I got a telegram—a telegram this morning from our Minister which makes me hope it may be so. Anyhow he is only reaching Shanghai today.
Secretary: Well, now, what I wanted to know was are you in the same situation we are. If I should send you over a draft of what I propose that we should say, all of us, would it help you in the consideration of it?
Sir John: Well, yes. My movements are these. I am going to be here at Geneva until Saturday18 and I am leaving here at two o’clock.
[Here follows discussion as to where draft statement should be sent.]
Secretary: I could send it through Mr. Wilson. It would be understood, of course, that it is only tentative and subject to discussion with you.
Sir John: I quite understand, I shall not speak to anybody about it. But would you mind my making two observations now before you actually send your draft?
Secretary: Very much. I don’t want to send it if you have made up your mind entirely against the wisdom of any such move at all.
Sir John: Oh no, it depends actually upon its contents but it also depends on the situation of the time when it is done. We should like very much, the British Government, to discuss that with you and we [Page 295] will do the very best to agree with you, but we have a slight difference there; not only are we members of the League of Nations, which is trying to deal with it so that I have to consider that point, but more than that. We take a more hopeful view of the possibility of things being stopped than I think you are inclined at the moment to do. This is based on a message from our Minister within the last day. I am not saying that with any desire to fail to cooperate with you, very much to the contrary, because we are most anxious to do so. But I do think a great deal will depend on the statement in regard to reserving rights and calling attention to the Nine-Power agreement is a thing which is an absolute …19 of the judgment in a matter which after all the Council of the League is considering. I mean I must not get myself into that position, but I desire to say that the British Government, a member of the League, is unable to pronounce judgment itself alone right away.
Secretary: I have foreseen this difficulty. I have tried to avoid passing judgment on the facts, and such facts as I have mentioned are intended to be facts beyond dispute and without any apportionment of the original blame.
Sir John: Yes, that is your intention. Have you seen the report, at least the first part of the report, which was made with the help of a member of the Shanghai Commission?
Secretary: I have seen that and I have been doing my work with that before me and with the intention of avoiding—I have intended not to go into the nature of the boycott.
Sir John: It really is a matter of great importance so I should like to see your document as soon as you can get it to me. You will appreciate that I can’t give you an answer until I get to London on Sunday because I must speak to Mr. MacDonald about it. I really don’t quite see at the moment, from your point of view, that delay is serious for you. I don’t see why it is because they are not actually going to stop immediate operations.
Secretary: I agree with you perfectly. I think it is safe, so far as I can see. My only fear would be some turn for the worse or some situation involving the Settlement or some other change which I do not anticipate now.
Sir John: If you remember, we have sent our best man down and he is in Shanghai today, and we have especially asked him to send us an appreciation of his views, and he takes a very good view and he is a very wise man. We shall, undoubtedly, get from him at the end of the week his own appreciation and I will do my best to let you know what he says.
[Page 296]Secretary: I should be very glad.
Sir John: He has very good judgment and he knows the Chinese people very well, their reactions, et cetera, so, of course, the British Government would want to decide with that before them.
Secretary: I want to say that I am also waiting for my Minister to come there and to hear from him—he is there now. I am expecting word from him but I want to be perfectly satisfied that you want me to communicate with you as to this paper in Geneva, or shall I send it to London?
Sir John: Well, is it ready or are you waiting for a day or two?
Secretary: It is ready now—the first draft—I can get it to you.
Sir John: I think, Mr. Stimson, to save time, if I could have it sent to me here, I should be glad, although I shall not attempt to deal with it until I get to London. I should like it if I might send a message to our Minister at Shanghai and tell him to keep in as close touch as he can with your Minister to take their position together. Do you propose to do the same thing with your man?
Secretary: Yes.
Sir John: Well, I shall send a message to say to him that I understand that the American Minister has arrived and as he is making an appreciation of the situation for me I wish he would keep as closely as possible in touch with the American Minister and we should be very glad to have a close consultation.
Secretary: I have already asked my Minister to make an appreciation and I shall now ask him to consult with yours.
Sir John: Of course it is not directly concerning America, but you might like to know that the Chinese representative here at Geneva has asked that the dispute may be referred from the Council of the fourteenth to the Assembly.20
Secretary: Yes, I have heard that already.
Sir John: And you might like to know that we are having a meeting in a few minutes time of the Council without the Chinese and Japanese members and we are going to consider how we shall deal with that. They asked for it. That is the situation here.
Secretary: Well, now, just let me say this to help you with your work today in the meeting of the League. There is nothing in my proposition which is intended to forestall the judgment by the League. I do not intend to go into a judgment on the facts.
Sir John: Would you agree that I might say to them in their private meeting that I was in touch with you and I was quite sure that the United States was continuing to take an interest in the situation. It would be a great encouragement to them to feel that that is so.
[Page 297]Secretary: Yes, that is absolutely true.
Sir John: I will not repeat or suggest that you and I are engaged now in negotiations for a neutral zone because it isn’t true.
Secretary: It isn’t anything of the kind. We are not doing that at all.
Sir John: I am in close communication with you and I am able to assure them that the United States is keeping in close touch with the situation.
Secretary: That is absolutely true and furthermore I have been encouraged to believe from what I have heard that the League has shown that it is not at all adverse to any work that we may do under the Nine-Power Pact.
Sir John: You got that view from Mr. Wilson, probably.
Secretary: Yes, I get reports from him frequently.
Sir John: I want to come back to London because I want to impress upon my colleagues the very great importance of our acting together. The only difficulty is the nature of the declaration, or if not that, the time of it is bound to be very difficult for us, especially as we are members of the League, but I don’t expect that because I imagine your draft is in the sort of form which would not get us into difficulty.
Secretary: Yes.
Sir John: Unless there is something you want to say to me especially I shan’t try to ring you up tomorrow but may I tell Wilson I am expecting him to communicate your draft to me?
Secretary: Yes, but if by any chance some unforeseen accident should prevent me I will send it to you in London.
Sir John: No doubt, of course, you are communicating this to me through Wilson but for the moment it is only for me.
Secretary: Yes, Wilson is not familiar with the proposition in detail at all.
Sir John: I thought so. He was most helpful in a conversation I had with him but I did not think that on this point he appeared to be dealing with it, so I said nothing.
Secretary: Well, the one purpose that I wanted to make clear to you and the thing I wanted to find out from you was whether you saw any obstacle now, assuming that the situation in Shanghai does not change, to our cooperation.
Sir John: We have to go carefully because we are in very exclusive areas.
Secretary: You see no reason why, on the general sharp issue of keeping alive the Nine-Power Treaty, your country should not stand with us.
Sir John: I do not see any at all.
Secretary: That is exactly what I wanted to know. My whole [Page 298] proposition, provided you agree with that, is to make the rest of the paper agreeable to you.21
Sir John: I hope to be able to communicate with you on Monday.
Secretary: Thank you so much, good-bye.
- Between Mr. Stimson in Washington and Sir John Simon in Geneva, February 12, 1932, 11 a.m. Memorandum made in the Department of State for its own use; not an agreed record of the conversation.↩
- February 13.↩
- Apparently poor telephone connection at this point.↩
- See infra.↩
- For text of this draft, see telegram No. 11, February 12, 2 p.m., to the Minister in Switzerland, Foreign Relations, Japan, 1931–1941, vol. i, p. 80.↩