Papers Relating to the Foreign Relations of the United States, The Paris Peace Conference, 1919, Volume XI

Paris Peace Conf. 184.00101/99

Minutes of the Daily Meetings of the Commissioners Plenipotentiary, Monday, June 30, 1919

June 30, 1919

• Present:
  • Mr. Lansing
  • Mr. White
  • Mr. Herter

[1.] Memorandum No. 412 was read, in which Mr. Pierrepont Noyes, the American Commissioner on the Rhineland Commission, requested the opinion of the Commissioners as to the stand he should take after the withdrawal of the American Army of Occupation in regard to a possible Rhineland rebellion or revolution. Mr. Lansing stated that he had spoken to Mr. Noyes about this matter on the previous day and that he had at that time told him that he should discourage any change in the civil situation in the Rhineland provinces under occupation. An armistice leaves matters, particularly of a civil character, in statu quo, and it is the duty of the occupying authorities to maintain it. The Commissioners agreed entirely with Mr. Lansing’s statement of the case, but added that if, in the future, any radical change should take place in Germany, that is, in Germany east of the Rhine, it would then be advisable for Mr. Noyes to again request instructions from the Commissioners on the attitude which he should adopt. Attitude of American Commissioner on the Rhineland Commission

2. Memorandum No. 413 was read with regard to the vacancies in the Hotel Crillon left by the departure of the President’s party from Paris. The Commissioners agreed that these vacancies should be filled in accordance with the suggestions made in this memorandum. The Secretary-General could use his discretion in determining which class should have preference. Vacancies in the Hotel Crillon

3. Memorandum No. 414 was read, recommending that the American Commissioners urge that the committee appointed by the Supreme Council to deal with the Austrian Notes and Counter Proposals, be directed to hold at least one conference with the Austrian Delegates, at which oral discussions should take place. The Commissioners agreed with the recommendations in this memorandum and requested that a letter be prepared to the Secretary-General, urging that such a conference with the Austrian delegates be arranged for. Oral Discussions With Austrian Delegates

4. Memorandum No. 415 was read, recommending that Prof. A. C. Coolidge be formally appointed to the Czecho-Slovak Committee, the Roumanian and Jugo-Slav Committee, and the Greek and Albanian Committee, as the successor to Doctors Day and Seymour. The Commissioners approved of these appointments being made, and requested that the Secretary-General of the Peace Conference be notified accordingly. Appointment of Prof. Coolidge to Committees

5. Memorandum No. 416 was read, in which Mr. Baruch submitted the names of three members of the Interallied Rhineland Commission who desired to have passports issued to their wives to join them in Europe. These members were Messrs. Pierrepont B. Noyes, H. T. Noyes and Wallace H. Day. The Commissioners approved entirely of the issuance by the State Department of passports to the above named members of the Interallied Rhineland Commission. Passports for Messrs. P. B. Noyes, H. T. Noyes and Wallace H. Day

6. Mr. Herter read a memorandum from Mr. Bernard M. Baruch in regard to the salary and expenses of Mr. Fred K. Nielsen, who consented to remain with the Commission and who could no longer be paid from the funds allotted to Mr. Baruch for his own office forces. The Commissioners approved entirely of having Mr. Nielsen given the same salary by the Commission as was formerly given him by Mr. Baruch, as well as his expenses. Salary and Mr. F. K. Nielsen

7. Mr. Herter brought up the question of having an American representative appointed immediately on the commission set up by the Supreme Council to inquire how far steps have already been taken by the Allied and Associated Powers to carry out the various provisions of the Treaty of Peace with Germany and to make recommendations as to such further measures as should be adopted for this purpose. Appointment of Mr. John Foster Dulles

The Commissioners agreed that Mr. John Foster Dulles would be best qualified to represent the United States on this Commission, and, accordingly, requested that Mr. Grew notify both Mr. Dulles and the Secretariat-General of the Peace Conference of this appointment.

8. Mr. Herter read a letter from Rear-Admiral H. S. Knapp, enclosing a copy of an urgent cablegram received from his London office, regarding conditions at Libau and Riga. The Commissioners noted the letter and accompanying cablegram with interest. Conditions at Libau and Riga

9. Mr. Herter read a memorandum prepared by Mr. Norman H. Davis for the information of the Commissioners, as to the status of questions with which he has been dealing. The Commissioners noted the contents of the report with interest. Reports of Mr. Norman H. Davis

[10.] Mr. Margolin, Vice-Minister of Foreign Affairs of The Ukraine under Petliura; Mr. Paneiko, representing the Ukrainians of Galicia, and an interpreter entered the meeting. Ukrainian Delegation

Both Messrs. Margolin and Paneiko spoke in Russian and their remarks were translated by an interpreter.

Mr. Paneiko spoke first on behalf of the Ukrainians of Galicia. He emphasized the fact that for 600 years his people had been trying to gain their freedom. In particular the domination of the Poles in Eastern Galicia had been very irksome to them. They were very much worried at learning that a large part of the territory in which they lived was now to be subjected by the Peace Conference to Polish rule, and this anxiety was increased by the many stories of maltreatment of their fellow-citizens which they had recently been receiving. Nevertheless, they were willing to accept the decision of the Peace Conference in the hope that the Polish occupation would only be temporary and that this whole question would later be reconsidered by the League of Nations.

The territory from which he came, Mr. Paneiko said, had in late years experienced five different occupations. The people craved for peace and the permission to pursue their lives in quiet. The Poles would not be able to keep this peace, there would always be sporadic revolts. On behalf of his people he requested that an impartial judge or tribunal be established upon the territory to judge impartially of the conditions and to decide the ultimate fate of the people. An Englishman or an American would be most welcome.

Mr. Margolin then spoke on behalf of the Ukraine as a whole. He said that he had come to ask for assistance—assistance of three kinds, moral, technical and economic. He would prelude his request for moral assistance by stating that the former Russia no longer existed. It had been divided up into several parts, each one of which had established its own government. At the moment, excluding Siberia and Great Russia, there were twelve such separate sections. All the governments in these sections have as their fundamental idea the preservation of law and order and were against Bolshevism. The only rational way of treating these people would be to recognize them all provisionally as de facto governments until a Democratic Constituent [Assembly?] could be called. It would be very possible that when these various Constituents were called, they would all elect to participate in a Federalized Russia.

He went on to say that it was very difficult for his people to acknowledge that either Koltchak or Denekin had the authority to speak for all of Russia, including The Ukraine, instead of for only those parts which they controlled. Denekin and Koltchak had received aid and a practical recognition from the Allied and Associated Governments in their fight against Bolshevism. Why could not The Ukraine be given similar assistance? The only real outstanding political difference between the two was that while Koltchak had pledged himself to creating a General Constituent Assembly for the whole of Russia, The Ukraine desired local Constituent Assemblies, which would realty represent the wishes of the various peoples. For instance, if Koltchak should call a Great Assembly, the Ukrainians would not send delegates to it, because they would know beforehand that they would be in the minority and that their interests would be sacrificed to the interests of the Great Russians.

In regard to technical assistance, Mr. Margolin stated that he wished very much to have American technical help in the development of his country. Possibly an American mission could be sent which would not only go to Galicia but to Odessa and the rest of The Ukraine. Some five weeks ago a French mission had been promised for Eastern Galicia, but it never materialized. Unless some mission of officers with experience, together with equipment and munitions, could be sent in the near future, Mr. Margolin feared that anarchy might result throughout The Ukraine.

Economic assistance was indispensable to The Ukraine, according to Mr. Margolin, where industry had been practically ruined; she was badly in need of foreign capital; her transportation system had completely broken down and she required expert advice and assistance in rebuilding it; whereas she has an excellent river system throughout her territory, she was unable to develop this system because she had not the capital to dam and canalize her great river arteries. She would be only too willing to make concessions to American capitalists or engineers. The French were already looking over the field, but The Ukrainians would welcome Americans ahead of Frenchmen.

At this point Mr. Lansing inquired what future the Ukrainian Delegation felt was in store for their country. Mr. Margolin replied that the idea of federation had been born in The Ukraine and had been fostered there for many years. In fact, The Ukrainians had often desired that the old Russian Empire be reorganized, giving various states within the Empire a certain degree of autonomy within a federalized state. Recently, however, Bolshevism and Bolshevik Russia had killed this idea of federalization. The Ukrainian people could not have federalization imposed upon them from above. It would therefore be much better to begin from below; give the small semi-independent parts provisional recognition and then let their respective Constituent Assemblies decide the greater question of federalization.

Mr. Lansing then inquired whether there was Bolshevist control in The Ukraine or how strong the Bolshevist minority in the Ukraine was at the present moment. Mr. Margolin replied that the Russian and Ukrainian peasants were all naturally conservative and against Bolshevism. Bolshevik bands had, however, invaded the Ukraine in spots and had completely possessed themselves of certain industrial centers such as Kiev and other cities. It could hardly be said that the Bolshevists were in control of large portions of the country but they had seized a large part of the administrative machinery and thereby were able to maintain a partial control.

Mr. Lansing then inquired if it was not true that The Ukrainians were really working for much the same ends as Koltchak and Denekin. If this were true, why did they not join hands with these leaders and arrange that some system of autonomy be granted to them under their leadership. To this both the Ukrainian delegates replied that they had already spoken to Malakoff, who represented Admiral Koltchak in Paris, but that the latter was rather untractable. He felt that he spoke in the name of all of Russia and was not willing to come to any definite agreement. The question of the Constituent Assemblies made it difficult for them to agree.

Mr. Lansing stated definitely that the United States was not in favor of independence for the Ukrainians but that it was in favor of a single Russia, in which the various portions should have a certain degree of autonomy.

Mr. Margolin replied to this that only a Constituent Assembly called by the Ukrainians could decide this question of federalization. If the Ukrainian delegates had proper guarantees from Admiral Koltchak that their people would be given the proper degree of autonomy, they would be only too glad to join a federalized Russia.

Only in the event that the Ukrainians come to an agreement with Admiral Koltchak, said Mr. Lansing, would it be possible for the United States to give to it proper support in material and technical help. It appeared to him, however, that the Ukrainian delegation was going at the matter entirely wrong; that it should ask for assistance in a different way. As yet the United States had recognized no part of Russia, except the countries which should by rights remain permanently independent, such as Finland and Poland. They could not recognize even provisionally the independence of The Ukraine. If, however, as he had said before, the Ukrainian delegation could make a suitable agreement with Admiral Koltchak, conditions might be different.

Mr. Margolin concluded by stating that he feared that his people would be afraid of Great Russian control unless he made them some very definite promises and that they would likewise never agree to vote for a general Constituent Assembly. He likewise added that his people might very much resent being handed over to the domination of the Poles, Czecho-Slovaks and Roumanians without being consulted. To this Mr. Lansing replied that self-determination would govern the transfer of any Ukrainian from one country to another.