Papers Relating to the Foreign Relations of the United States, The Paris Peace Conference, 1919, Volume XI

Paris Peace Conf. 184.00101/149

Minutes of Meeting Between the Commissioners and Technical Advisers, American Commission to Negotiate Peace, Hotel Crillon, Paris, September 3, 1919, at 2:15 p.m.

Paris, September 3, 1919, 2:15 p.m.

• Present:
  • Mr. Polk
  • Mr. White
  • Admiral Knapp
  • Mr. Hoover
  • Dr. Scott
  • Dr. Johnson
  • Mr. Woolsey
  • Prof. Coolidge
  • Mr. Nielsen
  • Dr. Lord
  • Col. Embick
  • Lt. Col. Greene
  • Mr. A. W. Dulles
  • Major Tyler
  • Mr. Dresel
  • Mr. Marshall
  • Mr. Shephardson
  • Lt. Col. Dawley
  • Capt. Chapin
  • Mr. Shaw
  • Capt. Gordon
  • The Hon. Mr. Gibson
  • Mr. Harrison
  • Mr. Buckler
  • Mr. Crocker
  • Lt. Condon
  • Mr. Russell
  • Mr. Barclay
  • Stenographer:—Mr. Carlson

Mr. Polk: Admiral, have you anything to bring up?

Admiral Knapp: I received a dispatch this morning from Captain Madison at Archangel, in which he says that everybody will probably be out of the country up there except the British troops, by the end of this week. Our own Embassy people, the Y. M. C. A., the Y. W. C. A. and the military mission.

Mr. Polk: Is Cole leaving?

Admiral Knapp: The Chargé and the Consul and one other man are going to stay, but they expect to leave on the 7th, and I have telegraphed the Department that I will withdraw the Des Moines unless I am otherwise instructed.

Mr. Polk: The British have sent more troops in there recently, haven’t they?

Admiral Knapp: They have in the last three months. They sent up some so-called volunteers.

Mr. Polk: Did you want to bring up some question in regard to Dalmatia, or do you want to bring it up later?

Admiral Knapp: Just as you choose.

Mr. Polk: All right, you might bring it up now.

Admiral Knapp: Andrews³³ has mentioned several things from Fiume. One is about conscription in the American zone by the Serbs. They are using conscription down there. I spoke to you about it, as you remember.

Mr. Polk: And we told them to stop it.

Admiral Knapp: Yes.

Mr. Polk: Remind me of it, and I will bring it up again tomorrow.

Admiral Knapp: And then he speaks of some very cruel and unusual punishments that have been given down there in the Italian zone, showing the attitude of the Italian people. I got a very interesting report from him, which is too long to read … he said they did not have even enough schools in Italy for the better classes. And then he is very much concerned about an article which appeared in the London Times, but I was speaking with Dr. Johnson about that, and he said that his fears about that were groundless.

Mr. Polk: What was that question in regard to the neutral zone you spoke to me about this morning?

Admiral Knapp: And then there is a question of us being authorized by the Conference here to mark out a neutral zone between the Italians and the Serbs. They are continually having clashes down there of one kind and another: the Serbs accuse the Italians of coming over into their zone, and vice versa, and I guess they are both right, and his idea was that as a rank outsider and a neutral in the thing, it might be a good thing if he could be authorized to mark out a neutral zone.

Mr. Polk: Who would authorize him to do that? The Council?

Admiral Knapp: I should think so.

Mr. Polk: Will you give me a memorandum on those two things and I will bring them up tomorrow.

Admiral Knapp: I will, sir. And then there is just one other thing. He has written me about the candidates for the position of head of that new mission that is recommended by the Commission of Four Generals in Fiume, and he said that rumor has it down there that there are three candidates: one is General Watts, who was the British member of that Generals’ Commission; the other is General Gordon, who was the head of the British Mission there in Fiume—I don’t know just exactly what that was; that is new to me—and the third is Lt. Col. Peck, who is the present member. …

. . . . . . .

Mr. Polk: Major Tyler, have you seen your Austrian friends in the last day?

Major Tyler: I have not seen them since they got the Treaty, sir.

Mr. Polk: You don’t know what they are going to do about that? Whether they are going to ask for more time?

Major Tyler: I am pretty sure that they will ask for more time.

Mr. Harrison: They have asked for two more days, sir.

Major Tyler: The National Assembly will consider the thing on Friday.

Mr. Polk: Two more days; when does that bring it to?

Mr. Harrison: Seven days from yesterday.

Mr. Polk: That is just a week, isn’t it.

Major Tyler: Yes, sir.

Mr. Polk: That will bring it up next Tuesday; to be signed next Tuesday.

Major Tyler: That will give them seven full days. They ought to be able to sign then.

Mr. Polk: Have you got anything, Dr. Scott?

Dr. Scott: Nothing, except to say, sir, that if the Supreme Council can get the geographic clauses put into shape for the Treaty with Bulgaria, and the southern boundary of Thrace, and the matter of the Dobrudja, and then if the Supreme Council can consider, either itself, or refer to a proper committee the Greek clauses, the Bulgarian Treaty can be finished almost immediately.

Mr. Polk: Are there any Greek Clauses?

Dr. Scott: Some time ago there was laid before the Drafting Committee the clauses which the Greeks would like to have inserted in the Treaty.

Mr. Polk: Are those two economic clauses?

Dr. Scott: I can’t state what they were.

Mr. Polk: Because if they were, there were some suggestions that came from the Greeks this morning.

Mr. Harrison: I think they are clauses relating to reciprocal immigration, which will be considered tomorrow.

Mr. Polk: We disposed of the economic clauses this morning.

Dr. Scott: At that time the draft we received contained some thirty or forty-odd articles. Now if that whole section can be gotten out of the way, and the geographical boundaries, the treaty can be completed immediately.

Mr. Polk: You raised a question here which was raised this morning: the question in regard to Dobrudja. In view of the present attitude of the Roumanians, of course it is obviously impossible to negotiate about that. Is it your understanding that the Bulgarian Treaty cannot go forward without the rectification of the Dobrudja line?

Dr. Scott: I can’t say what the political effect would be, but as for the draft of the treaty, there would naturally have to be a completed boundary.

Mr. Polk: The point has been made: the present boundary of Bulgaria could be described as the boundary. Now the Dobrudja question is a question to be settled with a friendly state—that is, Roumania, presumably friendly, and therefore that could properly be in a separate treaty. It is obvious at the present moment that Roumania would not discuss that question unless she were given compensation in Bessarabia. Now I understand the position of the Delegation has been, before I came here, that we could promise them nothing in Bessarabia; that that is part of Russia, and that therefore we would not be a party to the disintegration of Russia. Is it your understanding, Dr. Johnson, that the Dobrudja rectification would necessarily have to be a part of the Bulgarian Treaty?

Dr. Johnson: I don’t see why it is not possible to complete the frontier of Bulgaria, putting in the Treaty some statement to the effect that the problem of the Dobrudja should be made the subject of a special provision later. I don’t know whether we can take it up or not. The position of the American Delegation on the Territorial Commission was—and it was supported by Mr. Lansing and later by the President—that although Roumania was a friendly state we had a right to require the cession of the Bulgarian portion of the Dobrudja to Bulgaria, in view of the fact that we were giving to Roumania very large areas of territory which were acquired as the result of the common victory of the Allies, not by the Roumanians’ own efforts. That point of view was not supported by the British or the Italians, who took the position that Roumania being a friendly state, we could require no cession of territory. But our position has been that while we may not require outright cession of territory, we will say that “we will give you territory if you cede that.”

Mr. Polk. Aren’t we more or less blocked? We cannot give them Bessarabia.

Dr. Johnson: But even outside the question of Bessarabia, there is Transylvania.

Mr. Polk: There is Transylvania, of course.

Dr. Johnson: Where the Territorial Commission gave Roumania territory at the expense of Hungary. They were treated very generously.

Mr. Polk: But they made no deal at that time.

Dr. Johnson: No, but it has not been approved, as finally settled, I understand. We are still in the position of saying when the Treaty has been negotiated, that while in general their frontiers have passed the preliminary stages, “We can give you that if you are willing to cede. We will give you that territory if you will cede the Bulgarian territory to Bulgaria.” We can make a Treaty on that basis. Now if you are not going to deal with Roumania because of the present attitude in these questions—

Mr. Polk: Roumania is going to deal with us.

Dr. Johnson: (Continuing) Well, whichever it happens to be—it makes it rather difficult to use that means of securing the cession of the Dobrudja. I don’t see what we can do other than frame some article in the Treaty which will show that we intend to take up the Dobrudja question when we make the treaty with Roumania.

Dr. Scott: On that theory, Mr. Polk, we can have a general clause to the effect that the Allied and Associated Powers reserve the right to consider at some ultimate time the disposition which would ultimately and in justice and equity be made of the Dobrudja.

Mr. Polk: (Addressing Mr. Harrison) Didn’t that question come up this morning?

Mr. Harrison: Yes, sir.

Mr. Polk: The British recommended that we proceed, and leave out the question of the Dobrudja, that is, not attempting to draw a new line, and it was agreed to by all except myself, and I reserved, because I understood that Mr. Lansing had always been very strong for giving that part of the Dobrudja properly belonging to Bulgaria, to Bulgaria. Now, in view of the present attitude of Roumania, it would be a waste of time to attempt to draw the line. We certainly do not want to put ourselves into the position of being turned down. So don’t you think it would be quite consistent to so draft the Treaty that that question could be left open to be disposed of later on by the Allied and Associated Powers?

Dr. Scott: Yes, but if you are going to consider the question as subject to reconsideration at some future time, there should be, I think, an apt clause of that kind in the Treaty.

Mr. Polk: Yes, I agree with you, but then we could take it up in the Hungarian Treaty.

Dr. Scott: Then, Mr. Polk, do you think it advisable to have considered at the earliest meeting possible the various Greek clauses, so that that might be put in form for the Treaty?

Mr. Polk: Yes.

Dr. Scott: And at the same time would you take up in the Supreme Council the question of the reservation on the part of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers?

Mr. Polk: On Bessarabia, yes.

Dr. Scott: No, not on Bessarabia; on the Dobrudja.

Mr. Polk: On Dobrudja, yes. If you will let me have the suggestions, I will bring them up.

Dr. Scott: Yes.

Mr. Polk: (Addressing Mr. Woolsey) Have you anything to bring up?

Mr. Woolsey: Our Committee has finished its work and [is] waiting for the next thing to do.

Mr. Polk: Have you anything, Prof. Coolidge?

Prof. Coolidge: Nothing except to point out one thing in connection with what we have been saying about Bessarabia. Bessarabia was one of the points mentioned in the memorandum which was approved by the President.

Mr. Polk: He did not go so far as to actually say to award it to Roumania.

Prof. Coolidge: No, but that very principle would allow the discussion.

Mr. Polk: I think it would be a mistake to go into discussion with Roumania; they are holding an election there. (Addressing Dr. Johnson) Dr. Johnson, have you had anything in regard to the reservations in connection with West Thrace?

Dr. Johnson: No, I have not.

Mr. Polk: That has to be very carefully considered.

Dr. Johnson: I understood that they were going to submit a statement of the proposed draft of that part of the treaty.

Mr. Polk: Tardieu wasn’t there this morning?

Dr. Johnson: He was not. I have asked for an appointment with him, but I have not received a reply.

Mr. Polk: I pointed out this morning that that telegram they asked me to send the President was incomplete inasmuch as it does not set out any plan; Venizelos is not getting all he thinks he is entitled to, but does not offer any suggestion for the President to accept.

Dr. Johnson: I have not seen the draft of that telegram.

Mr. Polk: Well, I haven’t sent it. I have it upstairs.

Prof. Coolidge: Are we bound, by yesterday’s meeting, to accept a foreign occupation of West Thrace?

Mr. Polk: No.

Prof. Coolidge: I can’t see where there is any more necessity for occupation there than in East Thrace. There is where the friction was.

Mr. Polk: If we can get an international force in there it would be well, rather than to leave the Bulgarians in there to take a farewell wallop at it.

Prof. Coolidge: I don’t think they would take a wallop.

Dr. Johnson: There is nobody there to wallop.

Mr. Polk: There might be a difference of opinion on that.

Prof. Coolidge: The situation is the same as in Eastern Thrace, and why introduce this element—?

Mr. Polk: Well, Eastern Thrace is tied up with Constantinople, and practically being administered now from Constantinople (as I understand, all of Eastern Thrace) by the International body that is there. Now we can make no objection to their sending in troops other than Greek troops into West Thrace, if they offer to.

Prof. Coolidge: It is an element that would more likely make trouble than anything else.

Mr. Polk: I don’t think there would be very much ground to object to that suggestion. (Addressing Mr. Nielsen) Have you got anything?

Mr. Nielsen: I might call your attention to the fact that this treaty governing certain questions between the new states will probably be laid before you soon with report. We have explained to Mr. Lansing the reason why the reservation was made that he should sign, indicating briefly the very urgent desire of most of the delegates of the other powers that we do sign. I presume in the absence of instructions from him to the contrary we will stand on the reservations as made in the committee, that we won’t sign because the treaty embraces local questions.

Mr. Polk: I will keep that consideration off as long as I can, because in the Secretary’s mind, and in the mind of the Department there is no reason why we should sign; they see no reason why we should sign. Until we get a satisfactory answer to the last telegram I think we should not sign.

Mr. Nielsen: Now they have all the facts before them.

Mr. Polk: We will probably get an answer.

Mr. Nielsen: I think you will soon have before you the Spitzbergen Treaty, but inasmuch as we incur no obligations under it, I don’t think that will be very serious.

This Belgium-Holland Treaty Commission may make a preliminary report to you. I would like to talk with you a little more in detail about that.

Mr. Polk: Well, that belongs to the State Department rather than to the Conference.

Mr. Woolsey: Will the Serbian attitude delay the Treaty at all?

Mr. Polk: No.

Mr. White: Do they object to it?

Mr. Woolsey: They want to see it.

Mr. Polk: That is a very natural curiosity on their part. Have you anything, Mr. Dresel?

Mr. Dresel: I will say that I think the Committee on Repatriation of Prisoners has practically finished its labors. There seem to be left only the practical questions involving the handling by General Connor and he is going to arrange with the French that they will start at once to carry back the prisoners. There seem to be no obstacles except the possible difficulty in getting rolling stock, and it may be necessary to get the Germans to help with rolling stock. The British have their own rolling stock, so they are not up against that difficulty, but we have not, so it is a question of depending more or less on the French, but I don’t think there will have to be any more meetings on that.

Mr. White: How will they go?

Mr. Dresel: By train. I think it is open to question whether some of them cannot march over the road. I think General Connor is going to take that question up.

Mr. Polk: March some of them?

Mr. Dresel: March some of them, yes. But I think we were all agreed that they should be gotten out at the earliest moment possible, and General Connor is rushing the matter ahead.

Mr. Woolsey: Has any section of the Bulgarian Treaty been handed in now?

Mr. Polk: I think it is practically complete, except the two boundaries, and those questions raised by Dr. Scott. That is what the British representative said this morning.

Dr. Scott: I should say also that the Hungarian Treaty is practically five-sixths in type.

Prof. Coolidge: Everything ready but the Hungarian.

Mr. Polk: Well, see if we cannot expedite them. Have you anything, Dr. Lord?

Dr. Lord: I should like to raise one question about Dantzig. The long delay about the entry into force of the peace with Germany has been particularly inconvenient for the Dantzig people and for the Poles, who are expecting some day to have arrangements made with Dantzig which are extremely important for them. The Dantzigers have already been more or less cast off by Germany, and they have not the faintest idea of what is going to become of them under the new arrangement, and apparently they are getting extremely impatient to have some things settled, and the Poles are also extremely anxious to get their economic privileges and rights at Dantzig settled as early as possible so that regular business relations can be established to Dantzig with the outside world.

And I ought also to say that the German Delegation here has presented a letter to the President of the Peace Conference raising a number of important and rather puzzling questions about the interpretation of the Treaty with regard to Dantzig. It seems to me that everything that can legally and fairly b& done to clear up the Dantzig situation ought to be done at as early a date as possible. And there is one thing which I think could and ought to be considered rather quickly. The peace with Germany provides that the Free City of Dantzig shall be organized only at the same time as the Treaty between Dantzig and Poland goes into force, and that Treaty between Dantzig and Poland is to regulate the whole series of relations—political and economic—between the Free City and the Polish State.

Now the negotiation and drafting of the Treaty between Dantzig and Poland is a matter reserved for the Allied and Associated Powers; it is not for the League of Nations; it is not for the High Commissioner who will some day represent the League of Nations down there. Now, since the Dantzig state cannot be organized until the Polish-Dantzig Treaty is drafted by the Allied and Associated Powers, and since there will be nothing fixed or settled about Dantzig until the Free City is organized and until its relations with Poland are definite, I wonder whether the Allied and Associated Powers could not set somebody to work at once to draft the treaty between Dantzig and Poland—to do it on the spot, I should suppose—and have it all ready so that it can be signed and go into effect almost as soon as the German Treaty goes into effect.

Mr. Polk: No one is working on it now at all?

Dr. Lord: No one is working on it now at all.

Mr. Polk: Suppose you give me a memorandum to that effect.

Dr. Lord: I wonder if our domestic situation would render it difficult for us to touch a question like this? I suppose all this could be regarded as a part of the work for the commission now sitting for the execution of the treaty.

Mr. Polk: I don’t see that it has any bearing on it. It is a question to properly come before the Council for approval, isn’t it?

Dr. Lord: Yes, but it would, I think, require the appointment of a commission, which would probably have to go to Dantzig and do its work mainly there, in consultation with the Dantzig city authorities and the Polish government.

Mr. Polk: No, we couldn’t do that.

Dr. Lord: It seemed to certain people that it was going too far in executing the German Treaty.

Mr. Polk: That would come under the ban; anything that hasn’t anything to do with dollars is banned.

Admiral Knapp: Would it be a situation that Captain Abele of the Navy could handle? Captain Abele is up there.

Mr. Polk: He is on duty there?

Admiral Knapp: He is Naval Attaché to Poland. He is in Dantzig, mainly, and I am getting advices from him periodically, from Dantzig.

Dr. Lord: I think that Admiral Knapp’s suggestion could very well be acted upon. I was told this morning that there was a British naval man about to proceed to Poland to organize the Polish navy, and matters relating thereto, and that mission could furnish the British personnel for such a commission, and if we could nominate Captain Abele to sit, I think the work could be done rather quietly, and be all ready to sign the moment the German Treaty goes into effect.

Mr. Polk: If you will give me a memorandum I will bring it up and suggest that the informal committee begin sitting and report. (Addressing Col. Embick) Have you anything, Colonel?

Col. Embick: No, sir.

Lt. Col. Greene: I would like to bring up the question of the consular and diplomatic representatives in the Baltic Provinces.

Mr. Polk: That is a State Department matter.

Lt. Col. Greene: Yes, but it seems to me that it should be brought to the attention of the State Department.

Mr. Polk: I will bring it to the attention of the State Department if you will give me a memorandum.

Mr. Dresel: It has been. A message was sent about a week ago.

Lt. Col. Greene: That was about the diplomatic service, but not about the consular service.

Mr. Polk: No, I quite agree with you. That is up to the Department.

Mr. Dresel: We suggested that consuls be sent to Libau, Riga and Reval.

Mr. Hoover: Did you have any discussion about these cars and locomotives in Hungary?

Mr. Polk: Yes, and there were two very interesting reactions in there. On the question of Alsace-Lorraine the French got up on their hind legs, and then I suggested that it be referred to the proper committee. Mr. Balfour raised this point: under the reparations clauses would the Czecho-Slavs, the Yugo-Slavs, the Italians and the Poles be entitled to railway material that had formerly belonged to those governments? And I suppose there is some question about that.

Mr. Hoover: If you are going to follow that theory to its logical extreme you can take all the rolling stock that the Poles have got now.

Mr. Polk: Oh, if they have got it now, no. It was referred to the Reparations Committee.

Mr. Hoover: Our cars will all be going down to Roumania. Then what is the progress about settling that Teschen question? Is there any settlement arrived at or any hope of settlement?

Mr. Polk: It was brought up this morning; they tried to persuade us that no agreement had been reached, but they couldn’t persuade Clemenceau, who lost his temper. Of course that was not the case; he pointed out that they had reached an agreement and there was some political reason for preventing the report being made. We finally had the report made, and then agreed to have both Paderewski and Benes come tomorrow and take it up.

Mr. Hoover: The Polish miners struck some time ago because the coal they were mining wasn’t going to Poland; they said they wouldn’t work unless the coal went to Poland; and now this morning the Czechs have struck because they won’t work to produce coal to be sent into Poland.

Mr. Polk: We are going to try to settle that tomorrow.

Mr. Hoover: Then I have got further news. The Germans up there will accept the American occupation in Silesia.

Mr. Polk: You go home and persuade the Senate to let us do it.

Mr. Hoover: There is one point about the whole Polish relationship with the Germans in the areas ceded to the Poles. The Germans are stripping them bare, and the Germans are still in occupation; they are so anxious to get the food-stuffs out of those areas that they are hauling off the crops unthreshed, hauling off the green, unthreshed crops, and they are going to leave that place absolutely bare of food-stuffs. I don’t suppose there is any way to expedite the handing of that stuff over to Poland.

Mr. Polk: That is in the Treaty of Peace, isn’t it?

Mr. Hoover: The Germans refuse to feed the City of Dantzig any more from the German general food supplies, or to include it in the German food supplies, and the result is we have persuaded the Poles to feed the City of Dantzig for a time—I don’t know how long that will go on—so the city is going to be in a great deal of trouble.

And there is one thing in regard to the Scheldt, in connection with this quarrel between Belgium and Holland. We have been operating a whole lot of boats on the Scheldt, and we have an organization established. The Dutch are undoubtedly doing everything they can to obstruct that commercial situation there.

Mr. Polk: What are they doing?

Mr. Hoover: The Scheldt has silted up during the war, naturally, and there is only about seventeen feet of water. It is impossible to get shipping in to Antwerp with any degree of safety, and the Dutch will not dredge the river, and the Belgians cannot do it, and all in all they have put the city of Antwerp in a very difficult situation, and my own impression is that the Dutch are going to do their best to prejudice the Port of Antwerp in favor of Rotterdam, so that I do think that we ought to take an attitude of a great deal of sympathy on anything that provides for helping the Belgian situation.

Mr. Polk: Who did you get that report on the Scheldt from?

Mr. Hoover: From Fletcher.

Mr. Polk: Could you ask him to write me a report on that, because I will take that up with the Dutch, who have been talking to me personally, saying that they have been so liberal to Belgium. Now if I have a report of that kind I can make it disagreeable to them, saying that we will throw our sympathy on the side of Belgium.

Mr. Hoover: There is only one solution, and that is to put the Scheldt under an international commission, because the Dutch, as they have practically control of the improvement of the Scheldt, can always defeat anything that is done at the present moment. The Belgians have the right to call on the Dutch to improve it, but if they do not improve it, nothing can be done about it.

Mr. Polk: If you will get that report for me I will take it up.

Mr. Hoover: So when all the rivers around here are being internationalized, that ought to be internationalized also. I have had the Belgians withdraw their territorial aspirations there, and in view of that, the Dutch might agree to that. I think inquiry will establish that there is not more than 17½ feet draft in the river now, whereas it was navigable for steamers up to thirty feet before.

Mr. Polk: There is a funny thing about that; I raised the question the other day about the proposed visit of the King of the Belgians to the United States, concerning his going over in one of our ships; I raised the question about the George Washington going in there and Tardieu assured me it could.

Mr. White: Admiral Benson would not authorize it.

Mr. Polk: I told him that both McCullough and Benson were in doubt about it, but Tardieu assured me that it was deep enough.

Admiral Knapp: When the President left the second time it was proposed that the President go up there and leave from Antwerp, and I had the question examined and found it was not safe for the George Washington to go up there. Of course she is rather a large ship, but I haven’t any doubt that the river has silted up in these five years.

Dr. Johnson: I think I can get a certain report of the condition of the Scheldt before the war, which shows that the Dutch were placing obstacles in the way of the development of the channel there, making difficulty for the Belgians.

Mr. Polk: If we have that information, and tell them that in view of those facts it will be necessary for us to change our position, I think it will have a considerable bearing on the attitude of the Dutch.

(Addressing Mr. Hoover) Is that all you have?

Mr. Hoover: That is all. This Silesian thing seems to have quieted clown. Col. Goodyear has transported 450 German prisoners back to Germany, and gotten out his Poles that were up for execution, but nevertheless that situation is not going to be satisfactory as long as that bunch of German prisoners stay in there.

Dr. Lord: Mr. Polk, is there no way of putting pressure on Germany to induce her to accept Allied occupation and not merely American occupation. If the Council can send an ultimatum of fifteen days over an article in the German Constitution, it seems to me that this is at least of as great importance.

Mr. Polk: There is no way of getting at it. Every kind of pressure has been brought to bear, economic and everything else, but it is a political question. They are afraid that no man is strong enough to consent to it in Germany today; there is no man strong enough to consent to it who will last 24 hours.

Mr. Hoover: They would consent to an American occupation.

Mr. Polk: They would consent to an American occupation, but not an Allied occupation, for no man could last 24 hours who would consent to it. I think that is perfectly reasonable, for I think that in any country where the statesmen gave up an important part of the country—as Silesia undoubtedly is to them—to Allied occupation, it would not be a question of days, it would be a question of hours before they would be out. But I am sure the British and French both would be very keen for doing it if they can find any excuse for doing so.

Dr. Lord: I thought the excuse was furnished; that by their present procedure the Germans are making the plebiscite provided for in the Treaty rather personal. They are already preventing the execution of one of the cardinal items of the Treaty.

Mr. White: The plebiscite cannot be held under six months after the treaty goes into effect, and may not be held in less than a year and a half. Wouldn’t that be a good time to get the Poles back?

Mr. Hoover: The Poles will start in as soon as it goes into effect, plus more Poles.

Dr. Lord: There is another fact; that the Germans can arrest anybody for high treason, and sentence them to Magdeburg and bury them for ten years.

Mr. Polk: We will cure that when we begin to call for the German punishments. There will be a way found to bring those Poles out. That can be controlled.

Mr. White: Do you mean to say that the German government has consented to the American occupation?

Mr. Hoover: I have had a hint to that effect, and Col. Goodyear has been told they would.

The meeting adjourned at 3:00 p.m.

33. Rear Admiral Philip Andrews, commander of the United States naval forces in the eastern Mediterranean.