After the close of Saturday’s interview and the withdrawal of the
parties, Mr. Carter returned to inquire whether a supplementary
statement by the Queen would be received. He informed me that he had
held a conversation with her a few minutes after she left the legation,
and he believed that on next Monday (this being Saturday) she would
desire another interview. I told him that the object of the President
was to ascertain her course of action in the event of restoration; that
the United States could not dictate the policy of the Queen, if
restored, nor interfere in any way with the domestic affairs of her
Kingdom. A certain status or condition of affairs existed on the 17th of
January, 1893, which was overthrown by our unlawful intervention. If the
President, within constitutional limitations, could remedy this wrong,
he was willing to do so, and to this extent only and under these
circumstances only he inquired as to the future policy of the Queen.
Whatever she determined upon, however, must be her voluntary act.
With this explanation I consented to receive further communications from
the Queen.
Accordingly, upon learning that the Saturday interview had been verified,
I went to Washington Place, where the interview occurred, a report of
which I inclose.
[Inclosure with No. 15.]
Mr. Carter. I am permitted by Her Majesty
to say that I have had a conversation with her this morning
concerning the first interview you had with her; that I have said to
her that I was surprised and pained at the substance of it; that I
have felt that the remarks you have made as coming from the
President of the United States are entitled to Her Majesty’s
consideration, and that they are to carry weight as being the
expressions of the President, particularly in reference to this
first statement, where the President expresses his sincere regret
that through “the unauthorized intervention of the United States she
had been obliged to surrender her sovereignty, and his hope that,
with her consent and cooperation, the wrong done to her and her
people might be redressed.”
I have explained as clearly as possible the meaning of the words
“consent and coöperation;” that he recognizes he alone can not do
all that has to be done.
I then referred to this expression as given by you, that the
President believes “that when reinstated you will show forgiveness
and magnanimity, that you will wish to be Queen of all the people,
both native and foreign born, that you will make haste to secure
their love and loyalty and to establish peace, friendship and good
government.”
I have said to her that I have been deeply impressed with that
language arid I think that perhaps Her Majesty is now more impressed
with this language than she was at first, and I say to her that it
seems to me good government is impossible without Her Majesty shows
a spirit of forgiveness and magnanimity; that this movement against
her and her people embraced a large and respectable portion of the
foreign element of this community—an element we cannot ignore.
I next came to this expression: “Should you be restored to the
throne, would you grant full amnesty as to life and property to all
those persons who have been or are now in the Provisional
Government, or who have been instrumental in the overthrow of your
Government?”
[Page 1267]
I have said to Her Majesty that it seems to me that the position of
Mr. Cleveland is full of difficulties and embarrassments; that as
President of the United States he is a ruler among the nations of
the earth as Her Majesty was and, I hope, is to be, and that she
should make the way as clear to him to carry out his wishes to
repair the wrong done as she possibly can, not giving way to any
personal feelings in the matter; that she must leave out of
consideration in the question any idea of revenge. I told her that I
took it as the wish of the President that she should grant amnesty
as to life and property.
Then I went on to the remark that she makes that she feels unsettled
and unsafe with these people in the country. I am bound to repeat
what Her Majesty said to me, although it may not be in accord with
my own views, that she feels that these people should leave the
country, or peace and good government can not prevail. She thinks
any third attempt at revolution on the part of these people would be
very destructive to life and property; that her people have stood
about all they can stand of this interference with what they
consider their rights.
I have gone into the matter of the constitution with her, because I
know our views are not as fully in accord as I wish they were. I
have said to Her Majesty that I think she can safely put her cause
into the hands of the President of the United States, and say to
him, unreservedly, “You dictate my policy and I will follow it.”
Is Your Majesty satisfied with the statement I have made? Is it
correct?
The Queen. Yes.
Mr. Carter. Is it your wish?
The Queen. I must think a moment.
Mr. Carter. But you said you are not
seeking the lives of these people.
The Queen. Not their lives. I am willing
their lives should be spared.
Mr. Carter. And their property?
The Queen. Their property should be
confiscated to the Government, and they should not be permitted to
remain in the Kingdom.
Mr. Carter. Is Your Majesty willing that
this should be taken by the minister as your wish to-day, that this
matter should be put unreservedly in the hands of President
Cleveland with this statement. This is said by me as a friend, and I
think you have always found me such. In the conversation had with
you this morning I asked you as a friend to you and your people that
you give it prayerful consideration. You need not sign it if you do
not wish. It is your privilege to do as you please. I wish you would
read it over, consider it, and give it to Mr. Willis at as early a
moment as possible.
The Queen. I should like to talk with some
of my friends.
Mr. Carter (to Mr. Willis). Can she see
some one in the matter?
Mr. Willis. I do not think it would be
safe. I take it for granted that in matters of such great importance
she has ascertained the wishes of her native people and the leaders,
and that she has been in consultation with them upon these general
propositions. Is not that true, Your Majesty? I mean as to the
general policy to be pursued?
The Queen. I have. I must mention here
(speaking to Mr. Carter) that I have never consulted you in this
matter before. But I have talked the situation over with some of my
subjects, and I consider their judgment is wise and in accordance
with law, and have come to the conclusion that the statement I gave
in my first interview was what the people wished. I had hoped some
day I might have a chance to confer with you, Mr. Carter, in these
matters.
Mr. Willis. I understand, then, that you
said that the first interview I had with you embodies the views of
the leaders of your people with whom you have been in consultation
in the present crisis?
The Queen. They do.
Mr. Willis. And you have no withdrawal to
that to make this morning?
The Queen. Although I have never stated to
them what I had decided personally, still I feel that there may be
some clemency, and that clemency should be that they should not
remain in the country.
Mr. Willis. That is the extent of the
clemency—that they should be removed from the country instead of
being punished, according to the laws of the country, with
death.
The Queen. Yes.
Mr. Willis. I understand that there is no
withdrawal of your conversation of Saturday with reference to
military expenses and police expenses that have been incurred by the
Provisional Government. You still insist that those expenses should
be met out of property confiscated?
The Queen. I feel so.
Mr. Willis. I understand that you would not
be willing that the constitution as it existed on the 17th of
January, 1893, should be established permanently in the Islands,
believing, as you stated on Saturday, that it discriminated against
your native subjects.
[Page 1268]
The Queen. The constitution I wished to
promulgate was an improvement on the constitution of 1887, hut since
then I have considered further, and think that we ought to have a
constitution that would he more suited to the future. I would not
like to have the government continue under that constitution.
Mr. Willis. In the limitation which you now
make as to your clemency, do you include their children or just the
parents? Last Saturday you said: “They and their children.” Do you
still adhere to that judgment?
The Queen. I do.
Mr. Willis. Both parents and children
should he permanently removed from the country and their property
confiscated?
The Queen. I do, and their property
confiscated.
Mr. Willis. I desire now to read to you in
the express terms the judgment of the President. After citing the
fact that Mr. Blount had been sent here to ascertain the facts in
connection with this revolution, and after expressing a conclusion
based upon Mr. Blount’s report, that this revolution resulted
largely if not entirely from the improper intervention of our then
minister, and of the American troops, and expressing his desire
within certain limitations to correct the wrong done, he states as
follows:
“On your arrival at Honolulu you will take advantage of an early
opportunity to inform the Queen of this determination. * * * You
will, however, at the same time inform the Queen that when
reinstated the President expects that she will pursue a magnanimous
course by granting full amnesty to all who participated in the
movement against her, including persons who are or have been
officially or otherwise connected with the Provisional Government,
depriving them of no right or privilege which they enjoyed before
the so-called revolution.
“All obligations created by the Provisional Government, in due course
of administration, should be assumed.”
I read now from a cipher dispatch which has been sent since my
communication of the 14th of November, in which it is stated:
“Should the Queen refuse assent to the written conditions, you will
inform her at once [which I now do] that the President will cease
interference in her behalf, and while he deems it his duty to
endeavor to restore to the sovereign the constitutional government
of the islands, his further efforts in that direction depend upon
the Queen’s unqualified agreement that all obligations created by
the Provisional Government in the proper course of administration
shall be assumed, and upon such pledge by her as shall prevent
adoption of any measures of proscription or punishment for what has
been done in the past by those setting up or supporting the
Provisional Government.
“The President feels that we by our original interference have
incurred responsibilities to the whole Hawaiian community, and it
would not be just to put one party at the mercy of the other.”
The Queen. I want to say in regard to the
request of Mr. Cleveland asking for complete amnesty—how shall I
know that in future our country will not be troubled again, as it
has been in the past?
Mr. Willis. That is a question of domestic
policy of the country which you have to decide largely for yourself.
Do you intend to inquire as to whether the United States would
support you if restored?
The Queen. I do not expect that. The
decision I have given is not from any feeling of disrespect to the
President nor from a feeling of animosity toward anyone here, but I
feel it is a duty I should assume for the benefit of my people.
Mr. Willis. I so understand it—that you are
of the opinion that under the state of things which existed at the
time of this revolution, and also in 1887, that there could not be
permanent peace in the islands. That is a matter that the United
States has no right to look into or express an opinion upon.
The foregoing has been read to us by Consul-General Mills, and we
pronounce it a full and correct report.
Honolulu, H. I.,
December 18,
1893.
- Liliuokalani.
- J. O. Carter.
Witness:
Ellis Mills.
(On back:) Interview with ex-Queen in presence of Mr. J. O.
Carter. Monday, December 18, 1893. This interview occurred at
Washington Place, the ex-Queen’s private residence.
After this paper was signed, as above, Mr. Mills said to the
Queen, in behalf of Mr. Willis, that the reports of the two
interviews of Saturday, December 16, and of to-day (Monday,
December 18), as attested by her, would be immediately forwarded
to the President, and his answer, when received, should be
promptly made known to her.
