Foreign Relations of the United States, 1894, Appendix II, Affairs in Hawaii
Mr. Willis to Mr. Gresham.
Honolulu, Hawaiian Islands, December 18, 1893.
Sir: Your cipher instructions of December 2 were received as translated at 3 p.m. Thursday, the 14th instant. An arrangement was immediately made for an interview with the Queen for Saturday, December 16 at 9 a.m.
Mr. J. O. Carter was invited to be present. Mr. Carter, as stated in my dispatch No. 3, of November 14, is a brother of the late Mr. H. A. P. Carter, who was the Hawaiian minister to the United States. He is the president and manager of the incorporated company of “C. Brewer & Co.,” which does a large general mercantile and commission business, and is agent for a number of large sugar plantations. He is conceded by all factions to be a man of great intelligence and strict integrity. He is a native Hawaiian, but of American parentage.
At the appointed hour the Queen and Mr. Carter came, and the interview was, with their consent, reported stenographically by Mr. Mills, our consul-general.
I inclose the report, verified by the Queen and Mr. Carter. I also send a copy of a part of the interview with the Queen, reported in my dispatch No. 3, of November 14, which is also verified by the Queen, marked A.
[Page 1263]Mr. Mills’ report includes all that was said. It trill be observed that no restrictions were placed upon the Queen or upon Mr. Carter, the object being to secure a full and unreserved expression of views. This interview was held at the legation.
Very respectfully,
The Queen was informed that the President of the United States had important communications to make to her and she was asked whether she was willing to receive them alone and in confidence, she being assured that this was for her own interest and safety. She answered in the affirmative.
I then made known to her the President’s sincere regret that, through the unauthorized intervention of the United States, she had been obliged to surrender her sovereignty, and his hope that, with her consent and cooperation, the wrong done to her and to her people might be redressed. To this she bowed her acknowledgments.
I then said to her: “The President expects and believes that when reinstated you will show forgiveness and magnanimity, that you will wish to be Queen of all the people, both native and foreign born, that you will make haste to secure their love and loyalty, and to establish peace, friendship, and good government.” To this she made no reply. After waiting a moment I continued:
December 16, 1893.
Mr. Willis (addressing the Queen). I sent word yesterday asking you to come this morning and to bring Mr. Carter, whom you had mentioned in a previous interview as one of your friends. His was the first name given to me in the only interview we have had. My idea was to have some one present as your friend, who could hear what I wish to say to-day.
(Addressing Mr. Carter, Mr. Willis said:)
Mr. Carter, before having any further conversation it is proper I should make known to you what occurred at the previous interview. On the 13th of November I sent word to the Queen asking if she would come here, as there would be less publicity than if I went to her house. She complied, came here with Mr. Robertson, and a conversation ensued the substance of which I have made known to the President. I will read what I have written as an official report to the President, as leading up to the present interview, and as I read [speaking to the Queen] if there is any portion of the interview as given that you think is incorrect do not hesitate to stop me and make such changes as you desire, although it has been already submitted.
[The report in question was at this point read to the Queen by Mr. Willis. It is appended hereto, marked A.]
Mr. Willis. I wish to ask you now, and I ask you to deliberate well before answering, whether the views expressed at that time, as read to you now, have been in any respect modified sine that conversation?
The Queen. They have not.
Mr. Willis. You still adhere to your judgment, as then expressed, that all of those persons should be punished according to the law under the constitution of 1887, which is that they should be punished with capital punishment and their property confiscated?
The Queen. I feel that if any change should be made that they must not be permitted to remain in the country, and that their property should be confiscated. That is my view.
Mr. Carter. You do rescind so much of that interview as pronounced upon them the death penalty?
The Queen. I do in that respect.
Mr. Carter. You feel that their remaining in the country would he a constant source of trouble to you and your people?
The Queen. I do. I think I mentioned at the time that should they be permitted to remain, that as they have once committed treason and this being the second offense, that, the next time would be dangerous for the community and the people. I think I said that in the other conversation.
Mr. Carter. In general terms, then, you feel that the continued living in this community of these persons who were guilty of the act of 1887, and the act of the 17th of January, would be dangerous and a constant menace to your people?
The Queen. I do. I feel also that if they were sent away they should never be permitted to return—they or their children.
Mr. Carter. Unless you exercised clemency or would you pronounce against them definitely now?
[Page 1264]The Queen. I feel so; that they should be permanently banished, and their children.
Mr. Willis. The present Provisional Government while in existence has created certain obligations. Would you consent that all such obligations assumed in the proper course of administration should be assumed and paid by you?
Mr. Carter. May I make it clearer? The minister wishes to know if the obligations the Provisional Government has entered into under the law, you would be willing that your Government should assume and be responsible for those obligations.
The Queen. Yes.
Mr. Carter. I want to make matters clear. I think they have been careful as a rule to observe statutory provisions, but there have been exigencies that demanded actions that are entirely outside statutory provisions—appropriations made, moneys expended. The question is, how far the new Government should be responsible for such acts.
Mr. Willis. That is the question to which I desire an answer. Whether, in the exercise of their discretion, they have even adopted measures that may not be strictly conformable to the statutory law of the land, but if the money has been expended for the benefit of the people in the matter of roads or in any other way, and not put into their private pockets. If these expenditures have been of a public character, and there is no charge of corruption, would they be recognized, whether strictly in conformity with the statutory law or not?
The Queen. I think such expenditures are legal. I would recognize them.
Mr. Carter. There has been a very heavy expenditure for military.
Mr. Willis. That is a question I wish explicitly answered. Grant that there has been; would you or would you not consider that an expenditure in the proper course of administration?
The Queen. I have thought the matter over; but I felt that the confiscation of the properties belonging to these parties would cover.
Mr. Carter. You believe that persons should be held in their estates liable for such matters—military, police, and other expenditures of like nature?
The Queen. I do.
Mr. Carter. I want to say a word, I have never said one word to Her Majesty on the subject. These questions are entirely new to me.
Mr Willis. It is entirely proper for you to ask such questions as you have, any question that brings out the exact views of Her Majesty is entirely proper. I understand [speaking to the Queen] then, in answer to the last question, that you would be willing to give an unqualified agreement that all obligations created by the Provisional Government in the ordinary course of administration should be assumed, but that as to the expenditure for police and military defense you would leave the cost of that to be met out of property confiscated from those who were engaged in the revolution? Is that right?
The Queen. Yes.
Mr. Willis. I understand from you that you would be unwilling to give a pledge that would absolutely prevent the adoption of any measure of proscription or punishment for what has been done in the past, as to those setting up and supporting the Provisional Government. I understand you to be unwilling to give such a pledge?
The Queen. I do not understand.
Mr. Willis. I understand from the fact that you have affirmed our previous conversation, and from your conversation to-day, that you would not be willing to grant absolute amnesty both as to persons and property to those who have either supported or who have aided in setting up the Provisional Government. That you feel you could not do it?
The Queen. I feel I could not do it for the safety of our subjects.
Mr. Carter. That is, that the continued presence of these people is a continued menace?
Mr. Willis. Do you adopt Mr. Carter’s words?
The Queen. I do.
Mr. Carter. I would like to make one remark here. Do I understand your Majesty that this matter is one that you may personally decide—that it is not one that you can commit to the ministers that you may appoint?
Mr. Willis. I am not instructed to ask such views. It is the views of the Queen herself I wish to ascertain. I have asked you to come here so that there can be no mistake in the matter. I am authorized, directly instructed and absolutely required to know three things—two of which I nave asked, and I am now about to ask the third. It is this: Whether in the event of a restoration it would be a restoration under the existing constitution of the country or under a different constitution?
The Queen. I believe it would be better to have a government under a new constitution that would be more suited to the present times and to the future. May I add—
[Page 1265]Mr. Willis. Anything at all. There is no restriction upon what you may say.
The Queen. That it wonld he one that would give the same privileges to my subjects as to the foreign subjects in my country. That they should receive the same advantages as the foreigners of which they have been deprived since 1887.
Mr. Willis. If I understand you the objection you have to the constitution of 1887 is the property qualification in voting for nobles, by which the native population is largely excluded from suffrage.
The Queen. That is correct.
Mr. Willis. Is there any other objection to that constitution?
The Queen. That is the principal objection. In the constitution I intended to promulgate, I changed the time of the term of the chief justice to six years, because I felt that if it were a life appointment that there are no bounds by which whoever holds the office—there would be no bounds by which he would carry on. There would be no limit to his actions.
Mr. Willis. In your remark as to the supreme court, do you limit it to the chief justice or does it include all the supreme court?
The Queen. All of them.
Mr. Willis. You mean not only the chief justice, but your judgment is that all of the supreme court should be appointed for six years?
The Queen. Yes; but if they proved themselves correct in their deportment they may be appointed over again for another six years.
Mr. Willis. How are their salaries to be determined?
The Queen. It would not affect the salary.
Mr. Willis. The salary would remain as at present?
The Queen. Yes.
Mr. Willis. The reason I ask you was that there has been some rumor that the question of salary was to be left to the legislature.
The Queen. I think the legislature would appropriate the sum.
Mr. Carter. The minister wishes to know whether the salary they entered the office with would be the salary they would continue to receive?
The Queen. Yes.
Mr. Carter. The idea is that they are not to be reduced to submit to the will of the legislature.
Mr. Willis. Is it your idea that the salaries they receive at the time of their appointment shall not be subject to change by the legislature or other action during the term of six years?
The Queen. Yes. These questions may be submitted to the cabinet.
Mr. Carter. That is another question. The minister wishes to get at your thought.
Mr. Willis. You are the only one now authorized to speak for your Government. In the conversation you have had to-day in the presence of Mr. Carter, you fully comprehend the meaning of all that has, been said, and all that you have said, and you adhere to it?
The Queen. I do.
Mr. Willis. You adhere to it?
The Queen. I do.
Mr. Willis. When this is written out and yon have made such changes as you deem proper, I will ask you to sign it. When signed, it will be submitted to the President. Is there anything further you desire to say at the present time?
The Queen. I wish to mention, speaking of the new constitution, that it would require some changes. The new constitution I wish to make up would require more members.
Mr. Willis. Of the legislature?
The Queen. No; in the cabinet.
Mr. Willis Had you determined in your mind how many should be in the cabinet?
The Queen. Six instead of four.
Mr. Willis. Have you anything more you wish to say?
The Queen. Nothing more.
The within report of an interview held between the Queen and Mr. Willis, the United States minister, on the 16th instant (Mr. J. O. Carter being present at the said interview), has been read in our presence by Consul-General Mills, and agreed to by both of us as being full and correct in every particular.
- Liliuokalani.
- J. O. Carter.
December 18, 1893.
Witness:
Ellis Mills.
(Indorsement:) Interview with ex-Queen, Saturday December 16, 1893. This interview took place at the legation.