Foreign Relations of the United States, 1977–1980, Volume IX, Arab-Israeli Dispute, August 1978–December 1980, Second, Revised Edition

325. Memorandum of Conversation¹

Washington, December 28, 1979, 12:15–12:51 p.m.

SUBJECT

• Summary of the President’s Meeting with Israeli Defense Minister Ezer Weizman

PARTICIPANTS

• President Jimmy Carter
• Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski, Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs
• Robert Hunter, NSC Staff Member (Notetaker)
• Israeli Defense Minister Ezer Weizman
• Ambassador Ephraim Evron
• Mr. Illan Tehila, Israeli Notetaker

The President began by discussing Afghanistan,² noting that the Soviets had tried to blame their actions on intervention by a third country. Asked who this could be, they could not think of one.

Minister Weizman said he was glad there were no Soviets in Egypt!

The President (laughing) said that he hopes Pakistan and India will feel this way.

Minister Weizman said there could be this feeling in Syria later, which is now getting T–72s and the MiG–25.

The President said that Iraq may clear out the Soviets.

Minister Weizman said he hoped so.

Dr. Brzezinski said that the Iraqis had shot 21 Communists in recent months.

Minister Weizman said it is a nice area he lives in.

The President said he had noticed.

Minister Weizman said he called it the Muddle East.

The President said that you have the situation well in hand. We appreciate how you control the situation.

Minister Weizman said that Lebanon is quiet.

The President said that this is good news.

Minister Weizman said he would try to keep it that way.

The President asked about the Iranian troops in Lebanon.³

Minister Weizman said that they are still in Damascus. Neither the PLO, Syria, or Lebanon want them in Lebanon. They are doing their best to keep the troops from moving there. He personally is not particularly worried about them.

The President asked how Israel is getting on with Egypt in the peace discussions.

Minister Weizman said that they could and should do better. He is not active in them, and thinks that this is a good tactic. Eventually he will probably get into them.⁴ The next Sadat and Begin Summit is very important.

The President mentioned the 7th of January.

Minister Weizman said it would be in Aswan. He will go to Egypt afterwards, at the end of January, to see Minister Ali and Sadat. Sadat is a great fellow, courageous and clever. Last month he had a half hour alone with Sadat, and two hours with other Egyptian leaders. Sadat said to try something on Gaza first, and to see if a solution is possible on Jerusalem. There is nothing new about that. He (Weizman) hopes at Aswan they will find a way to carry on. Afterwards he will see what he should do. What has been done, despite pitfalls, and less than the President would have liked to see done, he thinks is so strong that nothing can change the course, even though there are ups and downs. Between the two militaries, there are no problems. The interim line will be reached at the end of January. It is working out nicely. There will be no UN, and no US troops. It is a neat and clean withdrawal to the interim line.

The President noted that both sides are accommodating to one another.

Minister Weizman said that with Minister Ali he has no problems. He called Gamasay in New York, and will see Ghorbal while he is here.

The President said that this weekend or Monday⁵ he will telephone Sadat and Begin,⁶ for end of the year greetings. He will compliment them on their heroic progress towards peace. He will have a word on expectations for Aswan, and encourage them to move forward. If Minister Weizman has any thoughts about what should be said in these phone calls, would he pass them to Eppy for Zbig. This applies to both phone calls.

Minister Weizman said he saw Sol Linowitz for lunch yesterday, and will see him again. He thanks the President for seeing him. He knows he is busy with Afghanistan and Tehran. He came here to try to influence, convince the President, share his thoughts, on what interests have changed from a few months ago. He does not like trips to ask for an increase in aid.

The President said he knew.

Minister Weizman said he prefers to say what he can do to help, and would like to be able to help with Tehran, etc. This would give him more than the greatest pleasure. Their feeling is that they are giving up a lot, especially on oil.

The President said he understood.

Minister Weizman said he has a photo which he will send, in color, taken by some Israelis in Sinai, of a sign saying “we did not withdraw, we handed back this land for peace.”

The President asked him to send the photo through Eppy.

Minister Weizman said an Army unit did this. Israel is now doing what it should have done two years ago: it is taking the bull by the horns, and making difficult economic decisions. The President will understand this, too. The new Israeli Finance Minister⁷ is tough. He is the first to speak neither English nor Yiddish, but only proper Hebrew! (The President laughed). The new economic laws and measures⁸ are good. It most likely picks on the defense budget. In the last two and a half years, he (Weizman) has reduced the budget by 10%. Part of this is because of peace with Egypt. He will be a little happier with that border. He hopes and prays there will be no war. The economic measures are tough. Pilots have taken a 20% cut in salary.

The President said that this is important symbolism.

Minister Weizman said exactly. With the military budget, he will try to get a voluntary 5% reduction in salaries in the armed forces. 100% inflation is terrible. He prays that within the next five years he will be able to cut their aid request by $500 million.

The President (laughing) asked what role the Minister would be in at that time.

Minister Weizman (laughing) said he hopes he will be defense minister. He asked to come here as Defense Minister and as a member of the Cabinet, to ask whether a way can be found on aid. He knows U.S. problems and the President’s desire for a balanced budget. Israel wants him to succeed.

The President said there is no way he can get a balanced budget, though he would like to.

Minister Weizman said that, without going into facts and figures, there is U.S. inflation and reduction in the value of the dollar. M–60 A–3 tanks now cost $1.4 million each, and we are talking about 200 of them. He has no problems with Harold, and none with Cy either. Israel’s military forces are going down, but there are heavy burdens. Their oil is gone, and will cost $2 billion a year. They have not gone to rationing, but have put the price up. They could go to rationing, but he doesn’t think so. For the first time, the Cabinet has asked Israelis to tighten their belts. In parallel with this, and in parallel with the peace process, if a little more U.S. aid could be provided. . . He was asked in Israel if he could get $3.6 billion. He said the answer was obviously “no.” He repeated on Israel Television that between Haifa and Tel Aviv there is a half-way point. He is making no suggestions to the President, only asking. He had a lot of misgivings in coming here. For Israel, an increase in aid would help them through a difficult period, and would keep the army in good shape. There is no argument about 600 planes (?) and 10 divisions. There was discussion before about 260 F–16s and 14 divisions, but Harold Brown and he had cut this down. Therefore, he asks whether there is anything the US can do. It would be a great help if the US did give something, especially understanding the situation. Egypt and Israel are trying to be steady. This is not political or military, but economic. He is sure Israel’s economic measures are right. For 2 to 4 months more, inflation will go up; then it will level off; and then he hopes it will start to go down. They will produce, work, and export more.

(The President left the Oval Office from 12:28 to 12:33 to speak on the phone with Italian Prime Minister Cossiga).

The President said that he had not yet met Prime Minister Cossiga. He (the President) thinks we will call for a North Atlantic Council meeting this weekend.

Minister Weizman said he only had a few words. One thing that has been a pleasant surprise has been public acceptance in Israel of the new restrictions. They have ended subsidies on some foods. He worries that people will forget the peace process, and say that, if there is peace, why does milk cost me so much? It is the same in Egypt. Khalil has talked with him about this. Israel worries about Egypt; they are in the same boat. But with a little bit more, Israel can get over the hump. He will do what he can to cut down the size of the military. He will try keeping Lebanon quiet, unless there is trouble there, which he hopes not. Egypt and Israel are working well together. He will go to Aswan in February. The best Ambassador in Egypt is his wife! Israel will not get 2 or 3% off the course we have talked about. The two sides are happy; and this is needed. It is good for Israel, Egypt, and the US.

The President said that he is totally committed to the peace process. It looks now like a time of assimilation, discussion, and implementation. The basic process has a positive trend. A key date will be with the diplomatic exchange. He has intervened personally with Saudi Arabia and Egypt,⁹ to try to assuage their difficulties, and hold down public condemnation of one another. We have had some interesting messages from Saudi Arabia recently, possibly reflecting a change in attitude on a Middle East peace, and increasing awareness of the benefits of a strong Egypt and Israel and future improved relations between Saudi Arabia and Egypt and Jordan, at least. His current aloofness from the peace process is temporary. He does not want to mislead the Minister: part of this is because of the election year; and part is because Israel and Egypt need to go as far as they can. But he will be there, even in an election year. He is not timid or fearful about being involved. If he is re-elected, then one of his life’s major commitments will be to the completion of the peace process. He will stake his reputation as a leader and as a statesman on its conclusion. Along with that, he will pursue a strong, peaceful Israel, accommodating, in a way suitable to Israel, with its neighbors. He will expend as much time and effort as is needed when it is appropriate, as at Camp David and on his trip to the Middle East. It is not finished yet; progress is needed. It is more than likely that his role will be needed. If it were not, that would please him. But if so, that is all right. He needs the trust of Israeli and Egyptian leaders, and has moderate trust, though it goes up and down. When he weighs in, he thinks he will be successful, and the Minister can depend on that. We will not be able to do anything substantial on aid to Israel. However, as part of the Peace Package, he will try to make some modifications. He will

talk with Harold about it this weekend.¹⁰ By Monday, we will tell Eppy. It would be a mistake to expect much. We have an extremely tight budget. This is not Israel’s fault. The Soviet threat has gone up, and we have had to increase the defense budget (partly in relation to the SALT debate). We will put a higher profile on our commitment to the Persian Gulf region, which will help Israel some, as well. Therefore he has had to cut down funds for social programs below what they would have been—for the aged, the poor, for education, though they will be adequate. Foreign aid has suffered severely. But he is determined not to cut aid to Israel or Egypt. Jordan, Syria, Greece, Turkey—including some good friends—will be cut back in dollar amounts. In addition, the dollar is decreasing in value. This will not happen to Israel. He will try—and he believes he will succeed—in getting a little more than a symbolic amount. This will increase the value of the Peace Package. He cannot be more definite now, and doesn’t know the amount. He will meet with McIntyre on it. He understands Israel’s problems, and wishes we could be more generous.

Minister Weizman asked if there is anything he can do. Some people in Israel said that he should shut up on the peace process!

The President said he doesn’t know what will happen with combined developments in Iran and Afghanistan. Maybe there is a silver lining in the clouds. He has a sense that many of the so-called moderates are deeply concerned about the consequences for them. If the Soviet Union moved into Pakistan; if the Iranians tried to unsettle the ruling family in Saudi Arabia; if there is Iranian-Iraqi violence, over the three islands¹¹ or otherwise—then the importance to them of having a strong and stable Israel and Egypt would greatly increase. We see the strategic importance of a friendly and strong combination of Egypt and Israel. This can be a stable rock, about which the waves of the region swirl. The last time he talked with Giscard, he began to see for the first time the value to France of a strong and friendly Israel. He (Giscard) was always the most critical of Israel, because of historical ties to Lebanon and other factors. He (the President) does not condemn Giscard for this. But France has begun to change its attitude toward Israel. The most serious aggravation in the entire world is the settlements. He understands the Israelis need to do something, but for us in dealing with the French, the Japanese, and the Moslem world, they are no help. They are a constant aggravation to us. It is hard to say to the French that Israel works for peace if it builds settlements. He knows that the number of settlers is small. The settlements have symbolic importance for Israel; but on the contrary, they have extreme symbolic importance as well. He has had a long-standing argument with Begin and others about this. Begin has seen public opinion polls for the US, that indicate that the support and esteem for Israel have gone down, because of a few dozen settlers. This (reduction in esteem) is of great concern to him (the President). He doesn’t know how important the settlements are for Israel: for the majority coalition,

yes, but in popular opinion he doesn’t know, he is not a good judge. But for him, for the Europeans, and for the moderate Arabs it would be easier to reach the ultimate objective of peace if this obstacle were overcome. Jerusalem is something to be dealt with down the line. The Saudis would protest, but must accept, the Camp David paragraph on Jerusalem, perhaps modified. The Minister should not underestimate Sol Linowitz’s ability. He is superb. He is a highly qualified negotiator and lawyer. He (the President) would guess that Begin and Sol would find it easier to deal with one another than Begin and Strauss.

Minister Weizman said he believes this is right.

The President said that Sol sees both sides. He works to bypass catch phrases that are difficult. In the next month or so—up to the exchange of ambassadors—Sol will be a student, and can make some progress. Later, his work will pay rich dividends. On this side of the ocean, Sol is more compatible with Cy and with the State Department than Strauss. He wants to tell the Minister this so that there will be no feeling in Israel of a reduction of interest because he put Linowitz in place of Strauss. There is no lessening of commitment or interest, and Eppy will agree with that. He (the President) is available.

Minister Weizman said he knew Sol from the time he was in business.

The President said that he is a top man.

Minister Weizman said that he had lunch with Sol.

The President said that Sol is quiet, does not brag, and is willing to give credit to others.

Minister Weizman said that Sol is a clever man.

The President said that Sol has a way with words. We would never have got the Panama Canal Treaties without him.

Minister Weizman said it was good that Sol was not at Camp David, or they would only have been able to be there a week!

The President said that Panama took 14 years. In part, this was because his predecessors didn’t bring them to conclusion; they couldn’t find the right words. Sol is a treasure.

Minister Weizman asked about Bob Strauss’ being in the re-election fight.

The President said that he is good at it, and this was what he wanted to do.

Minister Weizman said that maybe he should give Bob Strauss some ideas, since he ran the Likud election campaign two years ago.

The President said that this was one of the great surprises in the world. Perhaps Begin will give the Minister a vacation so that he can come here to help Bob and him (the President).

Minister Weizman said anytime. He has bet some cases of whiskey on the President, and did so when the polls were down. He would correct something the President said—“if” he wins. He would say “when” the President wins.

The President said that he is pretty confident.

Minister Weizman said that he appreciates that he cannot expect a substantial increase in aid. It is important to Israeli morale that the President took time to see him.

The President said he will let Eppy know no later than Monday.

Minister Weizman said he will be on Face the Nation Sunday.¹²

The President said he would watch it. He said that we are making good progress, in part because of what they are doing together.

(The meeting ended at 12:51 p.m.)

1. Source: Carter Library, Brzezinski Donated Material, Subject File, Box 36, Serial Xs—(10/79–12/79). Secret; Sensitive. The meeting took place in the Oval Office.
2. On December 27, Soviet military units crossed the border into Afghanistan. In his personal diary entry for that day, Carter estimated that 215 flights had brought “8,000 or 10,000 people” into the country. (Carter, White House Diary, p. 382)
3. Following a conversation with Syrian Presidential Advisor Daoudi on December 22, Seelye reported that 125–150 Iranian volunteers had arrived in Damascus with the aim of traveling on to Lebanon to aid the PLO. (Telegram 8471 from Damascus, December 22; National Archives, RG 59, Central Foreign Policy File, D790589–1135)
4. During a series of conversations with Linowitz while in Washington, Weizman reiterated his intent to become involved in the autonomy negotiations “at some point.” Weizman “said he planned to go to Egypt after the summit and then would try to find the appropriate time to get involved.” (Telegram 334907 to Cairo, Tel Aviv, and Jerusalem, December 31; Carter Library, National Security Affairs, Brzezinski Material, Cables File, State Department Out, Box 119, 12/25–31/79)
5. December 31.
6. See footnote 4, Document 324.
7. Yigal Hurvitz.
8. In order to address a growing balance of payments deficit and an annual inflation rate estimated at nearly 100%, the Israeli Cabinet approved the budget policy outline submitted by Hurwitz for FY 1980/81 calling for a 4% cut in real expenditure by the Israeli Government on November 18. (Telegram 24568 from Tel Aviv, November 19; National Archives, RG 59, Central Foreign Policy File, D790537–0896)
9. See Document 305.
10. According to the President’s Daily Diary, Carter spoke with Brown in the Oval Office from 5:43 to 5:50 p.m. on December 28. (Carter Library, Presidential Materials) No memorandum of conversation from this exchange has been found.
11. Reference is to the islands of Abu Musa, Greater Tunb, and Lesser Tunb in the Persian Gulf, over which Iraq had claimed sovereignty rights since 1971.
12. December 30.