57. Memorandum of Conversation1
PARTICIPANTS
- The Secretary
- A. Kikhia (Libyan Permanent Representative to the United Nations)
- Jock Covey, Notetaker
Kissinger: Did you want to use an interpreter?
Kikhia: No, we can do it in English. I think I can manage. You know we Libyans have a problem with languages. We were colonized by the Italians. I only started English under the British administration.
Kissinger: Do you speak Italian?
Kikhia: I understand it very well. I also speak French—and Arabic, of course.
Kissinger: How were the Italians as colonists?
Kikhia: Very bad, especially under Mussolini.
Kissinger: Very bad, you say? I did not realize . . .
Kikhia: Yes, it was a racist regime. They discriminated heavily against Arabs. There were laws that said no Arab could marry an Italian, and so on. There were two classes of citizens—national and the indigenous.
Kissinger: And the indigenous were the Arabs.
Kikhia: Yes, and all the laws were written in terms of indigenous and national people. It is for that reason that we joined the 8th Army and fought against the Italians. We were not so eager to fight against the Germans. We did not believe the stories about them. But the Italians were very bad. They exterminated 40 percent of our people. It was continuous guerrilla warfare. But now our relations with the Italians are good. After all, they are one of our neighbors.
Kissinger: And you just bought a big part of Fiat.
Kikhia: Yes. But, in general, people do not understand our Muslim background and how we feel. We did not have a chance for education under the Italians. When independence came, there were only five people in Libya who had University education. I was number four. But [Page 154] now we have students everywhere. We have 2,500 students in the United States.
Kissinger: Really! Then why are our relations so complicated?
Kikhia: That is it! That is something many people do not understand. There are 5,000 Americans in Libya. There is the oil business and there are other businesses. There really are only two problems between us. The first is our Ambassadors. Last year we gave you a name but you have never accepted it. You have never responded to us. But we really need an Ambassador in Washington in order to talk.
The second problem, of course, is military equipment. You know the Libyan Air Force was created by the United States. After the revolution, we tried to keep the F–5 Squadrons. All our personnel were trained in the United States, but then the American supplies stopped so we had to liquidate it.
Kissinger: You are also buying massively from the Soviets.
Kikhia: No, not really. We have Mirages. But I am really talking about the cargo airplane.
Kissinger: The C–130.
Kikhia: Yes, the C–130. We tried for many years to accomplish this purchase. We decided not to give up and to get you to execute the contract. Last month I was told to lead a delegation to Washington to talk about this. We were told by the woman who manages your Libya Desk that there was no use in coming.
Kissinger: Were you authorized only to talk about the planes, or about general relations?
Kikhia: About the planes and about general relations.
Kissinger: I have to tell you in all honesty that there are several problems. In the first place your Government uses procedures we are not used to. I was told that you would be sending a delegation to Lockheed and wanted to stop off in Washington. I never understood the purpose of that mission. It was never clear to me that it was a serious effort.
Kikhia: But . . .
Kissinger: No. I just want to tell you how it appeared to me. And then, sometime ago, someone from the Revolutionary Council wanted to talk. He wanted me to come to New York. I said I could not, but Sisco could come to New York. Then he said o.k., I will come to Washington. We waited for him but he never came. The next thing we knew he had left. We never know why he asked for the appointment, or why he left.
Kikhia: That was Captain Muhaishi. He had some difficulty with the regime and now he is in Cairo. He is in charge of contacting Arab students to get them to work in Arab countries after they graduate. He [Page 155] was here in that connection and at the same time maybe he wanted to try to do some other business.
Kissinger: I just have to tell you that this is the history—that this is the way it appears to us.
Furthermore, throughout the world, Libya has very actively and in some cases violently opposed the United States. Also in the UN you are very hostile to what we are trying to do. We could not avoid forming an opinion that many terrorists activities are financed and supported by Libya. But I am personally proud that during my period in office we have improved relations with the Arabs and I would like to improve relations with Libya.
Kikhia: Maybe these things are sometimes exaggerated in the mass media. We have a liberation movement in Libya. We cannot deny that but our role is exaggerated. Sometimes we have to act in self-defense. You know we read so much that was said against us. Even during the election campaign.
Kissinger: Especially during the campaign! (laughter)
Kikhia: There was Mondale who said that Libya must not be in the Security Council. And Javits has made a campaign against us. These things happen and you say this is only your free society. But now Mondale is the Vice President. You know that our leaders do not want to be intimidated by a big power. This you can understand. But if there is any effort toward peace we will try to help. And we hope the US will go one more important step and recognize the PLO. The United States wants to be the arbitrator between the two sides but it is very difficult for the Arabs to believe that America can change its commitment to Israel.
I think it would be a good thing in your relations with the Arabs if you would recognize the Palestinians. There is no solution without them.
Kissinger: All we want from them is that they recognize Israel’s right to exist. If they do that, then there would be a new situation. We have always said that we were committed to the existence of Israel but we also say that we will do everything we can to help find a just peace in the Middle East. But a just peace does not mean the destruction of Israel.
On the other hand, we have brought about Israeli retreats in Syria and in Egypt, and next year we may be able to take another step. The Palestinian issue has a chance of resolution if they recognize Israel. After all, we have never supported the Israeli occupation of Arab territories.
Kikhia: You Americans are a big power. If you recognize the Palestinians you can talk to them and exert pressure on them. We, as Arabs, cannot betray the Palestinian cause.
[Page 156]Kissinger: We are not asking you to betray the Palestinian cause. We would never do that.
Kikhia: But in our bilateral relations we do not know what you expect from us.
Kissinger: We don’t want you to give up supporting the PLO. That is given and we understand but those terrorists who killed 80 people in Rome came from Libya, and that is not necessary, to say the least. We want you to stop supporting these terrorists. Then we can have easier relations.
Kikhia: We have relations with many Arabs. Arabs from the left, and Arabs from the right. We cannot be responsible for the actions of all those Arabs we are supporting.
Kissinger: But we do not see why you have to support those who are known to be terrorists.
Kikhia: We support the Palestinians, of course. We know there are some inside the Palestinians who do these things and we have condemned them. In fact Qadhafi was very cruel. He wanted to apply the old Arab rules and cut the hands off of those who were in Rome. But we are a small country and it is sometimes difficult for us to defend ourselves. We have only a few aircraft ourselves and they are easily hijacked.
The other day Senator Javits said Libya was financing terrorists, and I say does he have proof? If we were doing that he should have proof. After all, you have over 5,000 Americans in Libya. You must know something of what we think and what we are doing. To accuse us of supporting terrorism is unfair.
Kissinger: You know, you should get together with Scranton in New York. He is a good friend and I have total confidence in him. You could review relations with him. You could get fresh instructions from Tripoli and then if you could present some concrete ideas, and we could come up with some concrete suggestions too.
Kikhia: Can I tell Tripoli that the problem of planes will be resolved in the context of our general relations?
Kissinger: You can certainly tell them that the problem of the Ambassadors will be handled in the context of our general relations, but I must tell you it is not sensible for the outgoing Administration to deal with the airplane question. But I would think that the new Administration could look into it on an early basis.
Kikhia: Yes. I will see Scranton.
Kissinger: Why don’t you meet with him the middle of next week. By that time I will have talked to him myself.
End of Conversation
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Summary: Kissinger and Libyan Ambassador Mansur Kikhia discussed the status of U.S.-Libyan relations.
Source: Library of Congress, Manuscript Division, Kissinger Papers, Box CL 177, Geopolitical File, Libya 1973–76. Secret; Sensitive; Nodis. The meeting took place in the American Embassy residence. Kissinger was in Mexico City to attend the inauguration of President Lopez Portillo.
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