89. Transcript of Telephone Conversation Between Secretary of State Rogers and the President’s Assistant for National Security Affairs (Kissinger)1 2

[Page 1]

[Omitted here is conversation unrelated to South Asia.]

R: I had two interesting talks with the Indians. It was like lancing a boil.

K: Because of Pakistan?

[Page 2]

R: Yes, she really let her hair down. She said we were against her father and her. She said she resented our pressure and our activities. I said just tell us what you have in mind and we’ll stop it. I said it’s a little difficult for us; we’ve been in office only 20 months and you are holding against us a paranoia going back to John Foster Dulles.

K: That’s good. It’s interesting considering her father was the darling of the American intellectuals.

R: When it was over I said to the Foreign Minister let’s continue this. So he came over to my apartment this morning. He told me how they feel about out aid. I told him we are not interested in having them indebted to us. I said all we want is a little friendship; everything we get from them is almost acrimonious.

K: I think this will help. They are just probing until they meet a little resistance. They have a terrible paranoia.

R: I said do you think we are doing something? I said I don’t think Keating has done it—he’s a pretty acute person. It was a very interesting discussion. It may get a little bit better now.

K: Once they know where they stand and with whom they are dealing it may get a lot better. I think you’ll have a better time with them now.

R: I said give us a list of specifics. I said if we are faced only with suspicions and animosities from years gone by there’s nothing we can do. He said our aid mission should be reduced. I said we’ve reduced it considerably from what it was; don’t you know that? He said yes. I said then why don’t you thank us instead of just complaining more.

K: I think it is paranoia. They are suffering because they were the leading non-aligned country and now they’re just another undeveloped one.

R: I gave her a going over on Vietnam. She spoke against us at the UN. She got dramatic and said “I would give my life for freedom.” I said we are giving our lives for it. We’ve lost ____ Americans and ____ more casualties and we don’t like it at all when you are so critical about what we’ve done. I also gave them a going over about cultural centers. I said you accused us publicly, you had no evidence, you didn’t even speak to us privately before you made your public charge. I said it’s false and we resent it.

K: I think your relations with them are going to improve. If you watch them dealing with each other ... outside they play this moral game, but inside [Page 3] they are tough as hell. I don’t know what more we could have done for them. They get 40 percent of our aid budget. We penalized Pakistan with an arms embargo.

R: We’ve done everything we could. I went there; the President went there. If things done to her father bug her and she doesn’t trust us ...

K: Kennedy practically slobbered over her.

R: I know. I just thought you’d be interested.

  1. Source: Library of Congress, Manuscript Division, Kissinger Papers, Box 365, Telephone Conversations, Chronological File. No classification marking. The omissions are as transcribed. For Rogers’ conversation with Singh on the morning of October 24, see Document 92.
  2. Rogers summarized his conversations with Indian Prime Minister Gandhi and Indian Foreign Minister Singh for Kissinger.