264. Memorandum of Telephone Conversation Between President Johnson and the Under Secretary of State (Ball)1
Ball told the President that he was seeing Ayub at 7:15 and wanted to ask if Pres had anything that he should stress. One thing Ball said he wanted to mention to Pres was that at lunch he had for Ayub,2 Ayub mentioned to Ball his talk with Pres and was counting on talking with Arthur Goldberg. President said they had no discussion along this line.3 President said Ayub expressed admiration for Goldberg. Ayub asked if Goldberg was in Cabinet room and Pres. said if not he would be at dinner tonight. Ball said he interpreted his talk with Ayub that Pres had agreed that possibly he could get together with Arthur and President and talk a bit. President said he intended to take him privately upstairs and spend a little time but did not intend to ask Goldberg. Ball brought up his conversation with Ayub concerning Tashkent visit at Russian invitation on January 4–5. Both Ayub and Bhutto asked what will happen if Tashkent fails on Kashmir question, meaning would we pick up ball? Ball thinks we should be extremely careful to give no indication that we will pick up ball because then they will make sure that Tashkent does fail. President said he did not raise that question with him. Pres. said Ayub thought there ought to be a plebiscite and failing that arbitration. President said he told Ayub that we did not have any more influence with Indians than we had with him—that we desired peace in that part of the world but could not achieve it. President said when he needed Ayub he was in Peking or Moscow. We regretted the situation. Ayub said he had no use for China but wanted to protect himself. He had nothing but friendship for us and said people of Pakistan and people of America could bring this about. President said he offered him no hope, no promises, no commitment, except that he said he hated for us to go along as we are now. The people that have been friends of Pakistan are disillusioned and do not understand his flirting with Chinese Communists and using the Chinese against us and India. President said the Indians are disappointing us as much as the Pakistanis. Ayub denied that he had been offended and said he [Page 505] sympathized with Pres and his problems. He put blame on UPI for stirring up everything.
President said he told him we are glad to see him go to Tashkent and if they can bring satisfactory results, fine, but if they can’t, the problem we have is what we do with our people if he courts the Chinese. President said he told him he did not know where we could go in view of peculiar relationship with Chinese Communists because our people are trying to preserve Asia from Communism.
Ball said he was anxious about this one idea—he spoke to Goldberg who understands if he should talk to Ayub. Ball said we are not prepared to pick up pieces if Tashkent fails. President said it looks to him that this was discussion that leads nowhere. Ball said tomorrow after we have softened him up that we can inject a little more hope. Ball said he was subdued and spoke warmly of his conversations with President—they are verging on despair. President agreed that he appeared pathetic and spoke with inferiority complex. Ball agreed he has been chastened.
President told Ayub he is deeply disappointed at situation he finds himself in—our country is in position that it does not feel very sympathetic with any situation that involves allies of Chinese Communists. President said on hearing this Ayub jumped out of his chair and said he wants nothing to do with the Chinese but he is trying to prevent from being eaten up. Ball said Ayub has been in very difficult spot and he has his problems with his own people. President said that he told Ayub if he has any question with us that he needs no more to fear from President or our Government that Lady Bird does—that we feel very close to them. President mentioned that Ayub is free to change his own cabinet members—mentioning Bhutto. Ayub defended Bhutto saying that it was Bhutto who encouraged him to come to US and reaffirm their friendship etc. Ball said he thinks we ought to continue a pretty tough line tonight, that any give should come from the President. In the morning Ball said we can decide what element of hope we want to inject into the situation.
- Source: Johnson Library, Ball Papers, Presidential Telcons, 1/17/63–6/25/66. No classification marking. Transcribed by Theresa Dombroski.↩
- A memorandum of Ball’s luncheon conversation with Ayub on December 14 is in National Archives and Records Administration, RG 59, Conference Files: Lot 66 D 347, CF 2569.↩
- Johnson was referring to the private conversation he and Ayub had prior to the meeting with their advisers on December 14; see Document 263.↩