Office of the Historian

129. Memorandum of Conversation1

SecDel/MC 9
New York, September 27, 1965.

SUBJECT

  • Dinner Conversation with French Foreign Minister (Germany)

PARTICIPANTS

  • French Side
    • Couve de Murville
    • Ambassador Alphand
    • Claude Lebel, F.O. Press Spokesman
    • Jacques de Beaumarchais, Director of Cabinet for Foreign Minister
  • U.S. Side
    • The Secretary
    • Ambassador Thompson
    • Ambassador Bohlen
    • Walter J. Stoessel, Jr., Dep. Asst. Sec.,EUR

The conversation at dinner was general and discussion of substantive matters was limited. Couve seemed relatively relaxed and affable, but he was not disposed to get into political questions. The following subject was touched upon.

Germany

Couve wondered what the Soviet attitude would be concerning German reunification if the two problems of the German boundaries and of access to nuclear weapons were solved. He thought these were the two basic questions of concern to the Soviets.

The Secretary questioned whether this was accurate; he was inclined to feel that the Soviets were more concerned about the over-all problem of their dominant position in Eastern Europe. If there is a plebiscite in East Germany, the Soviets know it will go against the Ulbricht regime and they fear that the impact of this could roll back Soviet influence throughout Eastern Europe. The Soviets do not wish to gamble their position in this area on German self-determination.

Couve suggested that the best prospect for Germany might lie in having the “two German states” (he said he could use this phrase since no West Germans were present) proceed to establish a pattern of increased contacts and political relations between themselves. If this occurred, he predicted that within five years reunification would occur without the necessity for a plebiscite.

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Ambassador Bohlen remarked that he had always felt Adenauer had made a mistake in refusing to deal at all with East Germany in the mid-50s. Couve said he thought that even now it was not too late for this to begin.

  1. Source: Department of State, Conference Files: Lot 66 D 347, CF 2547. Confidential. Drafted by Stoessel and approved in S on October 6. The meeting was held in the Secretary’s suite at the Waldorf Towers. The source text is marked “Part IV of VI.”↩