268. Memorandum of a Conversation, New York, October 7, 19601
SUBJECT
- UN Matters
PARTICIPANTS
- U.S.
- The Secretary
- Mr. G. Lewis Jones
- India
- Prime Minister Nehru
- Mr. M. A. Vellodi, First Sec, Perm. Mission of India to UN
Prime Minister Nehru opened by saying that he was returning to India on Sunday.2 He had arrived on Sunday3 and thus would have been here exactly two weeks.
The Secretary said that he felt that during these two weeks the presence of the Prime Minister had helped to reduce tensions.
Nehru replied he hoped so but was not sure. In some situations there were tensions between individuals.
[Page 566]The Secretary replied that President Eisenhower had told Nehru that he was willing to talk with anyone at anytime if it would really contribute to the cause of peace.
Nehru replied be was quite certain that the President would not let personal considerations stand in his way if he could be helpful. However, there were times when individuals played such important roles that what they did, or did not do, had political consequences.
The Secretary reiterated that the President was willing to do anything for the cause of peace. Of course, Mr. Khrushchev had said many hard things about the President in Paris and afterwards. These were difficult to swallow.
Nehru smiled, implying that he knew how rough Khrushchev had been upon the President and that he did not approve of Khrushchev’s tantrums.
The subject rapidly shifted to India’s relations with the Communist world. Nehru said that he was not afraid of the USSR. He did not believe the USSR had any intention of going to war at this time, however blustering they might appear. However, the ChiComs were a different matter. He was not sure what the ChiComs might do given the fact that it has always been a national trait of China to be expansive whenever the Chinese were confident as they seemed to be now. The Chinese now felt that they were propagating the “true” Marxist doctrine, were making economic progress, and were faced with an enormous population growth. Nehru said that when he had mentioned the idea that it might soon be too late he had in mind the Chicoms. The time might not be far off when they, too, had developed sophisticated weapons. At present the Chicoms were dependent on Soviet technical help and thus are subject to some measure of restraint by the USSR. This would not be the case if and when they possess their own sophisticated weapons.
Re the population growth of China the Secretary recalled that when he was in Burma recently there had been much talk of the development of the Burmese upland region. Even if this were developed and populated it could absorb only about 20 million people. Southeast Asia is already overpopulated. Therefore it is rational to suppose that when the Chicoms seek room to expand they must push northward. The USSR must know this and must be worried about it.
Nehru referred to a dispute between the USSR and the Chicoms with regard to Outer Mongolia. He said the Mongolians clearly preferred the USSR. He said it was a little known fact that India has ties and shares traditions with Outer Mongolia. The ruling families there were descended from Indians who took Buddhism to this territory some 1,000 years ago. The name of the present President of Outer Mongolia is actually a sanskrit word. The Mongolians and the Indians recently have exchanged scholars to study old books and records. [Page 567] Nehru said he was impressed by the fact that in Mongolia about half a million people occupy an area half the size of India. The Vice President of India had been there recently where he gave speeches on Buddhism.
Nehru then mentioned the high cost of supporting one hundred or more Embassies and Consular establishments; the Secretary told of the protests he had received when he attempted to make one Ambassador do for four of the new African countries; each wanted an Ambassador of their own.
Nehru brought up the subject of frontier negotiations with Communist China. He said the Chicoms had made treaties with both Burma and Nepal. He had advised these two countries when they consulted him, to make any treaty they thought in their interest. The Chicoms had shown themselves reasonable “because they want to put pressure on us”. Nehru said that when he and Chou En-lai had met they had been polite to each other but had gotten nowhere: they had agreed that their experts should meet—first in Peking and later in Delhi.4 The experts have not reported and have asked for more time. There might be another meeting later in Peking.
The Secretary commented that it was a good thing if India could “keep talking” with the Chicoms.
Nehru said that British policy in India in the Nineteenth Century was based on a fear of czarist Russian expansionism and not on a fear of China. He said Afghanistan was intended to be a buffer state in the mountains to protect India. Nehru said he was prepared to make minor revisions in the frontier with Tibet but nothing on the scale which the Chicoms apparently envisaged.
Re the Chinese, Nehru said that Southeast Asia was full of Chinese, whereas India has only about 10,000, mostly in Calcutta and mostly shoemakers and laundrymen. The Secretary said there were an amazing number of Chinese in Cuba. Nehru said that Ho Chi Minh5 had congratulated him on having so few Chinese and had indicated his dislike of them.
The Secretary remarked that the Chicoms appeared to be going through a difficult economic period. Their statistics were so distorted it was hard to know how difficult. Nehru agreed that this could be the case and when questioned about public opinion in India said that this was strong against the Chicoms. The Indian Communist party was split by feelings on this subject, there being “nationalist” Indian Communists and “internationalist” Indian Communists. Nehru said he had [Page 568] been accused in parliament of being an “appeaser”—some had demanded that he go to war with China “as though one could go to war over those mountains”.
Nehru described a trip he had made recently to Ladakh where there was an airfield 14,600 feet high. In an American helicopter flying in the clear air at 14,000 feet he had gone within one mile of the frontier. There was a desperate need for roads and improved communications in the area. India was concentrating on these. Communications were so short that when the Chicoms wanted to go from Peking to Lhasa they traveled via India until very recently.
The Secretary said that he should have said at the outset how much he appreciated Nehru’s invitations to dine with him on two occasions. Unfortunately, he had not been able to accept either time. Nehru implied that this was a matter of no importance and that he understood fully the Secretary’s not being available.
Nehru said, thoughtfully, that he was returning to India a wiser and perhaps a more educated man. The Secretary said again that he felt that tension had been reduced. Everyone wants the same things. The important thing is to make progress.
The Secretary said that he was glad that with our elections in full swing “nothing in the foreign policy field has yet exploded”. An explosion could occur at anytime, however, and one or the other candidate could get “boxed in”.
Nehru remarked that he had seen many elections, both in India and in the United Kingdom, and it was always true that people are “affected badly” during an election. The Secretary wondered whether mankind would ever develop the perfect form of government.
Nehru remarked that the United States has a special problem which is that of its people finding use for their leisure. He said this problem would not confront India for a long time.
The Secretary said that there was a tendency in the United States to use leisure time not for self-improvement but for escape—a tendency to seek easy amusement.
Nehru replied “there are plenty of mountains left to climb”.
The Secretary then told of a number of schools set up by a German friend of his in which his friend provided the “moral equivalent of war” by insisting that the boys assume the responsibility of becoming firemen, mountain rescuers, or sea rescuers. He said he would like to see expanded this concept of providing the young with a challenge.
Nehru said that education is the important thing.
The two men took leave of each other.