740.00119 Potsdam/6–645
Memorandum, of the Fifth Hopkins-Stalin Conversation at the Kremlin, May 31, 1945, 6 p.m.64
| Present: | Mr. Harry L. Hopkins |
| Ambassador W. A. Harriman | |
| Mr. Charles E. Bohlen | |
| Marshal Stalin | |
| Mr. V. M. Molotov | |
| Mr. Pavlov |
Mr. Hopkins said that if the Marshal was agreeable he was ready to discuss the list of those Poles who might be suitable to be invited to Moscow to consult with the Commission and with representatives of the Warsaw Government. He said that as an informal subject for discussion we thought that we might invite the following five Poles from inside Poland:
- Witos
- Zulawski
- Kutrzeba
- Archbishop Sapieha
- Trampczynski.
He pointed out that this was the Crimea list except that Trampczynski [Page 310] had been substituted for Professor Bujak; that from London the following might be invited:
- Mikolajczyk
- Grabski
- Stanczyk
Mr. Hopkins added that if this list was acceptable there would be no objection on our part to the Warsaw Government bringing anyone else with them they wanted from Poland and if they desired, Kolodzei from London.
Mr. Molotov said would it not be possible to agree that apart from the representatives of the Warsaw Government there would be only eight Poles, five from within Poland and three from London brought for consultation.
Mr. Hopkins said he thought it would be desirable to recognize that once the first consultations had taken place it might be found desirable to invite other Polish leaders from within Poland.
Marshal Stalin remarked that if this were done it might lead to a delay in setting up the new government.
In reply to Mr. Hopkins’s inquiry Marshal Stalin said that there would be three or four and not more than four representatives of the Warsaw Government.
Mr. Molotov then said that they proposed the following should be invited, apart from the representatives of the government:
From London: Mikolajczyk, Grabski and Kolodzei, making a total of three.
From inside Poland: Archbishop Sapieha or Witos, Kutrzeba, Zulawski, Professor Kolodzierski, Director of Economic Science of the Diet and Chairman of the Cooperative Society; and Adam Krzyzanowski, Rector of the University of Cracow.
Mr. Molotov said that thus all the principal political trends of Poland would be represented.
Mr. Hopkins said that he thought this might be difficult but that what objection would there be to increasing the number and accepting our list and then if the Soviet Government desired, add one more from London and two more from Poland, the new names proposed by Mr. Molotov.
Both Marshal Stalin and Mr. Molotov said they felt it would be necessary to limit those to be invited apart from the representatives of the Warsaw Government, to eight, five from within Poland and three from London.
Marshal Stalin pointed out that Zulawski was a socialist and so was Stanczyk and that either one could represent the socialist party.
Mr. Hopkins replied that he felt it was not a serious difficulty and [Page 311] that it would make really very little difference whether we added a few more names.
Marshal Stalin said that that might be true but he felt that considerable concessions had already been made to the United States point of view. He said that the Soviet Government had strongly objected to Witos, Zulawski, Stanczyk and Mikolajczyk but that now they were prepared to accept them.
Mr. Hopkins said that one of the difficulties would be that the changes on our list would require cabling to Washington and London and with due respect to Mr. Molotov, once these questions got into the foreign office both here in Moscow and in London and Washington, it would lead to long discussions and much cabling. He repeated that he felt it was a matter of relative unimportance compared to the main business at hand since, after all, these people were only coming to consult, and the Commission, of which Mr. Molotov was the Chairman, would be the final deciding authority.
Mr. Molotov pointed out that the majority of the persons suggested by the United States had been accepted.
Marshal Stalin said flatly that they could not go beyond the limits of the proposal advanced by Mr. Molotov.
Mr. Hopkins pointed out that we had no objection to any number coming from Warsaw and he was very much afraid that this new proposal would lead to protracted discussions.
Marshal Stalin said that by inviting all those suggested we would in fact be placing the Polish Government under the control of this consulting body who would decide its fate. At least that is what everyone did think. It was for this reason that it was necessary not to have too many conservatives. He said the additional names they had suggested from inside Poland were non-party people and that the only one who had party affiliations was Kolodzei from London, who, although not a communist was a communist sympathizer. On the other hand, on our list the socialist party would be represented by Zulawski and the peasant party by Mikolajczyk.
Ambassador Harriman said he wished to ask a question. He said he had never met Witos and since Marshal Stalin had said that he considered himself too old to take a government post would he not be merely here in the capacity of advisor to Mikolajczyk and would not his advice be good.
Marshal Stalin said it is true that Witos himself had told them that he was too old to accept governmental responsibility and it was of course quite possible that Witos would have a good influence on Mikolajczyk.
In reply to Ambassador Harriman’s question, Mr. Molotov said [Page 312] that Trampczynski, in addition to being eighty years old had also been a former member of the Prussian Diet and German Reichstag. There was some question as to whether Professor Bujak was one of those Poles arrested but it developed that it was Puzak and not Bujak.
Mr. Hopkins said he would like to consider Mr. Molotov’s proposal and submit it to Washington.
Marshal Stalin agreed.
Mr. Molotov pointed out that in regard to those from London they had accepted two-thirds of our suggestions.
Ambassador Harriman then mentioned that Jankowski had never been on any of the lists submitted by either the British or American Governments for consultation.
Marshal Stalin admitted that a mistake had been made. That he had thought the name had been proposed orally. He said he apologized; it was a simple mistake. He added however, that there had been others on the list who had been among those arrested, namely, Urbanski, Baginski and Jaskiukowich.
Ambassador Harriman pointed out that the mistake apparently rose from the British communications in March to Mr. Molotov giving information concerning members of the Polish Home Army at the time of its disbandment. He emphasized that at no time had even any inquiries been made about General Okulicki.
Marshal Stalin said this was true but that Jankowski and the others were connected with General Okulicki.
Mr. Hopkins then said on the subject of the arrests of Poles, that the United States had no direct knowledge concerning these arrests nor the merits of the case; that they had heard from the British Government that these men had allegedly been invited by properly authorized officers of the Soviet Army to come for consultation with a view to joining in some appointed movement inside Poland and that after having been invited they had allegedly been arrested. He said whether or not this was true, these arrests coming on top of all our inability to agree on the Polish question had produced the most unfortunate effect in American public opinion and that in the eyes of the American people it looked as though at least some of these men had been arrested for political reasons. This had contributed to the general difficulties which he had emphasized to the Marshal at their previous meetings and had merely added fuel to the flames.
Marshal Stalin replied that in his opinion the death of a hundred Red Army officers and men which had been caused by these men should have aroused resentment and sympathy in public opinion. The Red Army was liberating Poland and these men had shot them in the back. He said any government would have taken the same [Page 313] course as had the Soviet Government. He mentioned that the Soviet Union was not Albania, He said he did not guarantee that there would not be further arrests if these acts were continued against the army.
Mr. Hopkins inquired whether all these men were charged with the same crimes.
Marshal Stalin replied no, that some were only charged with operation of illegal wireless transmitters. He said some, in fact the majority, were charged only with the illegal operation of wireless transmitters. He said this was not true of General Okulicki and some others. They had been looking for General Okulicki for some time. Marshal Stalin emphasized that no negotiations had taken place with these arrested Poles and that none could have taken place. He said it was possible that one or two officers had talked with them on their own responsibility but that no one had been authorized, nor could have been authorized to hold discussions with these men.
Mr. Hopkins said he was afraid this question would interfere with the course of the negotiations on the substance of the Polish matter and he inquired whether it would not be possible to handle the cases of those arrested Poles who were not involved in plotting the murders of Red Army officers in such a way as not to interfere with the discussions.
Marshal Stalin said he did not see why these arrests should interfere with the negotiations, but in regard to the cases of those charged only with the illegal operation of radio transmitters, since their offenses had been committed during the war which was now over it might be possible to treat them with leniency, but that in any event they would have to stand trial. He went on to say that he knew General Eisenhower had arrested saboteurs in the rear of the army and that certainly the British had done so in Greece where much blood had been spilled, and he anticipated similar arrests in Denmark. He said the Soviet Government had never questioned the right of military commanders to protect their rear.
It was agreed that if Mr. Hopkins received a reply from Washington tomorrow that there would be another meeting and that Mr. Hopkins would let the Marshal know as soon as the reply was received.
- Memorandum prepared by Charles E. Bohlen, Assistant to the Secretary of State.↩