859B.00/15

Memorandum of Conversation, by the Consul at Godthaab (Penfield), Temporarily in Washington

Participants: Mr. Henrik de Kauffmann, Minister of Denmark
Mr. Aksel Svane, Governor of South Greenland
Mr. Berle
Mr. Penfield, Consul at Godthaab

Governor Svane opened the conversation by thanking Mr. Berle for the interest which the United States has shown in Greenland and for the assistance which this country has extended to that colony since the German invasion of Denmark. Mr. Berle said that the United States is anxious that the present status of Greenland be preserved to the end that it may, when and if circumstances permit, return to its former status. Mr. Berle also observed that Governor Svane and Governor Brun are in a most unusual position, in that they are in effect almost sovereigns. Our view is that Denmark is occupied by a hostile force and that the Danish Government is not a free agent; therefore, Governors Svane and Brun, representing free Denmark, are in a sense regents carrying on the true Danish sovereignty.

[Page 373]

Mr. Penfield said that he had passed on to Mr. Berle the substance of some of Governor Svane’s remarks on subjects which the Governor is anxious to discuss and that Mr. Berle therefore had some background in regard to these matters. Governor Svane said that perhaps he had better start by giving the substance of two telegrams which he had just received. The first gave the names and residences of all the foreigners residing in East Greenland north of Scoresby Sound, a total of 18 Danes and 7 Norwegians. The second telegram was from the radio operator at the Ella Ø station, who reported that on November 10 a gray land plane with a wing insignia consisting of a blue and white double cross flew over Ella Ø and dropped a penciled note signed “C. Hansen”. The note stated that the Greenland Office inquired whether the operator knew anything of the whereabouts or welfare of four Danish hunters supposed to be in East Greenland, and gave instructions for signaling a reply from the ground.

Brief mention of the activities of German controlled Norwegian ships on the East coast of Greenland followed and it was generally agreed that the inquiry dropped from the plane probably referred to personnel landed by one of these ships.

Governor Svane stated that the first matter which he wished to mention was the question of the defense of Ivigtut. He said that he had decided that a more adequate defense of the mine was needed as the cryolite income is vital to the well-being of Greenland and capture or destruction of the mine would be catastrophic. He had also decided that Greenland could afford to buy and man one more three-inch gun and asked if the American Government would be willing to sell such a gun to the Greenland authorities on the same basis as the first gun had been sold, as well as to facilitate the recruitment of a few more men in the mine guard to man this gun. Mr. Berle said that we should be very pleased to be of all possible assistance in connection with this matter and asked Mr. Penfield to take the necessary steps to obtain expert advice on the subject through the War Plans Section. He wished, however, in this connection to make a few remarks on the general subject of defense. Two three-inch guns would probably be sufficient to repel any casual small raider of the type which operated on the East coast this summer but against any craft mounting six-inch guns they would hardly be able to provide any defense worthy of the name and that therefore the question arises whether some defense measures beyond the resources of the Greenland authorities should not be instituted. Mr. Berle said that he had not considered exactly what form this might take but presumed that it might be in the nature of some sort of base which would permit the conduct of adequate naval patrols. He added that he merely wished to put forth this idea, which is obviously a rather definite departure from previous policy of this Government, for the consideration of Minister de Kauffmann [Page 374] and Governor Svane and that there was of course nothing definite in mind as yet. Minister de Kauffmann agreed that this idea represents a decided change in American policy and he and Governor Svane agreed that they would discuss the matter more at length. Governor Svane indicated that before he made a definite commitment in regard to another three-inch gun he would like to have a further exchange of views in regard to the larger project after a more definite crystallization of policy had been achieved.

Governor Svane stated that in this connection he had been somewhat worried about seamen from the foreign merchant ships which now come into Godthaab with supplies, that these seamen had upon several occasions this past summer disturbed the customary peace and calm of Godthaab, and that he would like to be in position to have police in Godthaab for the short periods when these ships are in port. The personnel of the mine guard at Ivigtut would be quite suitable for this duty but their service in Godthaab would raise the question of their status as employees of a mining company rather than of the Greenland Government. Mr. Berle said that this appeared to him an internal matter of administration which the Greenland authorities could solve either by exercising the well recognized right of a state to call into the state’s service private police when public policy demands, or by changing the permanent status of the guard from that of private mine employees to that of state-employed police, in other words a “nationalization” of the mine guard.

Governor Svane said that the next matter which he wished to bring up concerned the desire of the Greenland authorities to put into commission the two Danish naval patrol boats now tied up at Godthaab. These boats would be most useful for checking up on foreign fishing fleets on the banks off the West coast of Greenland and for patrolling the coast, but to put them into commission the Greenland authorities would need armament and a gunner for each ship. Mr. Berle stated that we would be glad to arrange for the purchase of the necessary armament (recommendations regarding this matter have been drawn up by Commander Smith of the Northland). It was agreed that the Greenland authorities would endeavor through Minister de Kauffmann to locate two qualified Danish gunners in this country, perhaps from the Danish training ship, Denmark, now stranded here, but that if they were not successful in this Mr. Berle would arrange for the employment by the Greenland Government of two qualified men. Mr. Berle asked if any radio equipment was needed for these ships. Governor Svane said that he believed that the radio equipment formerly on board had been taken back to Denmark but that he was not sure what type of equipment would be suitable. Mr. Berle asked Mr. Penfield to arrange for the Coast Guard to ask Commander Smith for detailed recommendations on this subject.

[Page 375]

Governor Svane stated that a few cases had come to his notice of unfortunate and not completely accurate statements having found their way back to Denmark via private letters and that he was anxious to prevent such occurrences, but that the institution of a formal censorship of mail would not only be completely foreign to all Danish ideals and traditions and thus create strong feeling in Greenland but would also be most difficult technically due to the shortage of personnel in Greenland. Governor Svane said, however, that with respect to radio traffic he had issued strict orders that all suspicious messages to points outside of Greenland must be submitted to him before dispatch and prohibiting all code messages except official messages. Mr. Berle said that he agreed completely with Governor Svane, that censorship is also completely foreign to all American ideals and traditions, and that he thought that the regulations in regard to radio messages covered the situation satisfactorily.

Governor Svane said that he wanted, if possible, to make arrangements for the eventual turning over to the appropriate Danish authorities of the weather and seismological information now being supplied the American Government by the Greenland authorities. Mr. Berle said that he did not see why this would not be both just and practical and suggested that with regard to the weather data Governor Svane talk informally with Mr. Francis W. Reichelderfer, Chief of the Weather Bureau, who would be at luncheon today. With regard to the seismological information, Mr. Berle asked Mr. Penfield to see that Governor Svane was put in touch with Captain Heck, Chief of the Division of Terrestrial Magnetism and Seismology.

Governor Svane said that his final question was in regard to the crews of Greenland vessels coming to the United States. He is aware that there are certain restrictions in regard to the entry into the United States of persons not of the white race and he wondered if it would be possible for Greenlander members of the crews of these ships to enter the United States as seamen. Mr. Berle said that he was not aware of any laws or regulations which would cause trouble in this connection but asked Mr. Penfield to take this matter up with the Acting Director of Immigration and obtain a definite and authoritative ruling for Governor Svane.

Mr. Berle said that Mr. Penfield had mentioned the possible desire of the Greenland authorities to bring families of some of the workers at Ivigtut over to Greenland and perhaps have them stay in the United States several months en route. Mr. Berle said that as far as the immigration regulations go he saw no objection but that we are, of course, anxious that there be no possibility that any persons coming from German-occupied territory would engage in subversive activity. Governor Svane said that he appreciated this point, that no attempt would [Page 376] be made to bring the families over until next spring, that if their exit from Denmark could be arranged then houses would be built for them at Ivigtut and they would stay in the United States until these houses were completed.

The conversation closed with an exchange of amenities.