701.6511/901

Memorandum of Conversation, by the Under Secretary of State (Welles)

[Extracts]

The Italian Ambassador called to see me this morning at my request. [For the part here omitted, see page 724.]

I then said to the Ambassador that, inasmuch as he was leaving Washington within the next few days to return to Italy and since this was probably the last opportunity I would have for any extended conversation with him, the Secretary of State and I both felt it desirable that I speak to him quite frankly with regard to a matter which was to this Government of the greatest importance. I said that, as the Ambassador knew, this Government had sent a communication to the Italian Government with regard to threatened discrimination on the part of Italy against American citizens of Jewish faith resident in Italy; that the Italian Government in replying to that communication had stated that it would be unable to give special treatment to these American citizens or more favorable treatment than that accorded other foreign nationals of Jewish faith residing in Italy, but that the American Ambassador in Rome had been given to understand that the special commission to be set up to deal with these cases would in fact pay particular attention to these American citizens, with the implication that there might be a possibility that drastic action would not be taken against them. I stated that there was no one point upon which the American Government was more determined than that its citizens should not be discriminated against because of their race, origin, or creed. I said that so long as our nationals who happened to be residing in Italy for legitimate reasons conducted themselves properly and did not contravene laws or regulations of the Italian Nation, the United States could not admit that these persons should be outrageously discriminated against because of their faith. I said to the Ambassador that I was sure he would realize, as I did, that public opinion in this country would not tolerate such a procedure, and that if it were actually undertaken there would be an impelling demand as soon as the Congress convened in January for retaliatory action to be taken by this Government, to be authorized by law, against the same number of Italian subjects resident in the United States as that of those American citizens who might be discriminated against in Italy.

The Ambassador turned a brilliant purple in the face and asked me if I meant that the initiative for retaliatory measures would be taken by this Government. I replied that it was impossible for me to [Page 597] specify with any precision how or when such action might be taken, but that I could give him very positive assurance that there would be an overwhelming demand for such action on the part of our people, and that whether the initiative came from the executive or from the legislative branches of the Government seemed to me a subsidiary matter.

Since I knew from previous conversations that the Ambassador personally was very strongly opposed to the anti-Jewish policy undertaken by his Government, I asked him if he could tell me, as a result of his recent trip to Italy, what the motives for and the origin of this policy may have been. The Ambassador replied that, while three years ago there had been only approximately forty thousand Jews in Italy, the number had now increased as the result of the emigration of refugees from Germany to almost one hundred thousand; that the greater part of these Jews were persons of the professional classes with some means of their own; that they had obtained in the short time they had been in Italy a considerable advantage over the Italians exercising the same professions, and that this situation had caused a good deal of agitation. He said that in addition to this there were, of course, some members of the Fascist Grand Council, such as Signor Farinacci, who were violently anti-Semite, and that these persons had fanned anti-Jewish feeling in every possible way. He stated, however, that national feeling generally in Italy was anything but anti-Jewish, and reminded me of his own intimate friendship and business partnership with prominent Jews in Trieste. The Ambassador said that he thought on November 7 the regulations under the Fascist decree of expulsion would be promulgated, and that it was possible that such measures of leniency might be afforded through these regulations as to make the expulsion of American Jews unnecessary. He stated, however, that he would communicate with his Government immediately on this subject and urge, as he said he had repeatedly urged before, that in the interest of better relations between Italy and the United States the contemplated steps should not be made effective with regard to American citizens. The Ambassador asked me if I could tell him how many American Jews there were resident in Italy. I said that I had no clear impression but that my understanding, perhaps mistaken, was that there might be in the neighborhood of two hundred or two hundred and fifty.

I then repeated to him what I had said before he left for Europe this summer, namely, that for a great nation of forty-four millions of people to adopt a drastic anti-Jewish policy such as that now adopted by Italy when there were only 100,000 Jews in Italy, according to his own statement, seemed to me very hard to comprehend. I said that if the Italian Government at the time the anti-Jewish atrocities [Page 598] in Austria were being perpetrated had publicly stated its belief, as had the Vatican, that human beings should not be discriminated against because of their religious faith or racial origin, not only would that policy not have resulted in the slightest prejudice to Italian national economy but it would have done more than any other one thing to improve public opinion in the United States with regard to Italy and the Italian Government. I said that the Ambassador had been among us for two years and that he knew well what a real friendship existed in the United States among our people for the Italian people; that we were proud of many of our citizens of Italian origin who contributed greatly to the welfare of this country, and that the Ambassador knew what a high standing they enjoyed in our national life. For this reason, I said, it was all the more regrettable that relations between our two countries should be as unsatisfactory as they are at this time, and I hoped that when the Ambassador returned to Rome he would continue to do what he could in order to make better relations possible. I said that the removal of any threat to discriminate against our nationals was a cardinal point; that another important point was the reaching of a fair agreement with regard to American films; but that underlying all of these questions was the point as to whether Italy was now going to embark upon a policy of cooperation with the other nations of the world in regard to equality of commercial opportunity and thus take the leading part which it should play in the reestablishment of a healthy and a peaceful world, or whether Italy was going to continue along the lines which it had been pursuing during recent years.…

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S[umner] W[elles]