Foreign Relations of the United States Diplomatic Papers, 1938, The British Commonwealth, Europe, Near East, and Africa, Volume II

711.62/160

Memorandum of Conversation, by the Secretary of State

[Washington,] July 7, 1938.

The German Ambassador called on his own request to say good-by before leaving for Germany, where he plans to stay until September. He was affable and agreeable in his personal attitude. I gave him an opportunity to talk if he desired, before saying anything myself. He soon proceeded by stating that the relations between our two countries were not very good when he came here as Ambassador, and that he had come with a special purpose and desire to be instrumental in improving them. He then added that, unfortunately, the relations had not improved but were now worse. The Ambassador went on to state the more objectionable phases from the standpoint of his Government. The first of these related to the general abuses, as he termed them, of the press in commenting on and criticizing his Government; the second related to what he considered as bordering on personal criticisms, both of his country’s form of Government and its rulers combined, by high officials of this Government, which, he implied, was a part of a systematic war between dictatorships and democracies, as our Government officials viewed it; the third related to the indictment of German officials located and residing in Germany, without any notice or any attempt on the part of our Government to deal with the matters otherwise, all of which was keenly disappointing to the Government of Germany; the Ambassador deprecated the charges in this country of the reported organized movement of Germans in the United States under the direction of the German Government, or, in any event, with the object of organizing Germans in this country in support of Germany first. He said that his Government has had nothing whatever to do with such movements, or utterances, or actions, and that that along with the recent indictments of German officials could much better be dealt with by conferences between our two Governments in the first place. The Ambassador said that there were differences of views in certain respects between our two countries and Governments at this time, one of these pertaining to the properties of Jewish nationals in Austria, another to the Austrian debt situation,⁴ and still another, which he termed the so-called persecution of Jews in particular. He stated that, with regard to the latter, France drove 100,000 Germans out of Alsace Lorraine and kept most of their property, adding that his own father was included among this number.

He said that he had heard no loud complaint in the United States when these injustices were taking place, such as is heard in this country at present in regard to German policy toward the Jews; and that his Government did not consider itself liable for the Austrian debts. I replied that I thoroughly agreed with him that the relations between our two countries had become steadily worse and that they were continuing to grow worse; that I had left the United States Senate in order to come to the State Department and aid the President in the general undertaking of carrying forward a broad basic program to restore world order based on law, with a sound economic foundation; that, when President Roosevelt came into office in 1933, the general international and world situation was becoming fundamentally worse—more chaotic and more nearly anarchistic; that most of the principles governing normal and peaceful international relations and sound economics were being violated and abandoned on a steadily increasing scale; that the doctrine of force, militarism and territorial aggression was being invoked more and more to spread violence throughout the world and to inflict unusual punishments and injuries on people both within and without countries practicing the policy of force; that, in brief, the entire world situation had become dangerous, if not to say desperate, especially from the long viewpoint of the peace and orderly progress of the human race. I said it was in the face of this alarming state of affairs that the President and I had become consumed with a desire to furnish our country’s share of leadership, with a broad basic program that would, if humanly possible, be calculated to check the increasing world momentum in a backward direction with the accompanying conditions of chaos and anarchy in world relations in general. I added that the Ambassador must appreciate the inexpressible disappointment I now felt to be obliged to agree with him that the relations between our two countries were worse at present than at any time within recent years.

I said that with reference to the German experience with the French in Alsace and the failure of my people to become vociferous in condemnation, that on account of their aversion to war and especially their disappointment with their own experience in war, they proceeded to get just as far away from the world as possible and to pursue a course of extreme isolation and almost entire indifference to what went on in other parts of the world; that this was their state of mind beyond question during the occurrence to which he referred and that he must clearly understand what would naturally be the situation in those circumstances.

I then proceeded to sum up some of the high points with respect to Germany’s course and attitude, by saying that this Government under its broad program of principles in support of world order, such as, equality of opportunity, fair play and fair dealing, noninterference in the internal affairs of other countries in contrast with the doctrine of force, has made every possible effort to bring about relations of understanding, genuine friendliness, and fair dealing in every sense between this and other countries and to encourage other countries to do likewise with respect to each other; that Germany has during past years received from this Government all of the benefits of equality with every other nation; that I, together with many others, have striven constantly to prevail on Germany to treat our country in a like manner; that, greatly to my disappointment and that of my Government, Germany has for some years adopted a succession of policies and practices resulting, in each instance, in unjustifiable injury to this country and in corresponding benefit or advantage to Germany. I continued by pointing out: the default by the German Government upon army of occupation indebtedness⁵ and the so-called “mixed claims commission” indebtedness;⁶ the treatment accorded American holders of publicly-held German bonds of many varieties, including the Dawes and Young Loans, where deliberate discriminations against Americans were practiced by Germany;⁷ then the placing of every kind of arbitrary restriction, amounting to discrimination in many instances, on our exports to Germany and the corresponding regimentation in every way possible to give Germany some arbitrary advantage in the matter of our imports from Germany; following that the application of laws and rules which made it virtually impossible for Americans who had inherited in Germany from taking one penny of it out of that country; the prohibition on Americans owning business plants or other profit-producing properties in Germany from bringing one penny of the profits out of that country; the cool announcement of the theory of no liability on Germany’s part for Austrian external indebtedness; and after that the legislation requiring Jewish-American nationals to register their property in Germany and hold it at the disposal of the German authorities for purpose undisclosed. After recounting this stream of acts of injury to our country by German policies, all based on the policy of discrimination and other arbitrary practices, to say nothing of the continued bitter attacks on racial minorities and religions, I spoke of the dissemination of much propaganda, as well as the many activities of Germans in the United States, with or without the knowledge and approval of the German Government, which were not at all in harmony with the Constitution and the laws of this country and the institutions which exist here. I said that the German Government could not within 1,000 years convince this Government or the American people that there is any rule of law or right that would justify one country seizing the assets of another country which has been regularly paying its external debt service, and telling the external creditors that they will not be paid one penny; that while the Government seizes the assets, the external creditors must bow their way out of the picture and make a gift to Germany of its honest debts. The Ambassador made some remark about the Austrian indebtedness having been incurred for political purposes, and I commented that our facts about the matter did not at all support this view. I then added that my Government was being besought by a constantly increasing number of people to take drastic action in return; that the tide of opposition to the course of the German Government in the foregoing respects had been steadily rising and continued to rise despite the efforts of the State Department and the President to hold it back in the hope that amicable relations between our two countries, based on a frank recognition of fair play and equality of treatment on the part of each government toward the other, might be brought about; that it would not be possible for us to continue this course much longer in the face of the seeming German policy to find new methods each week or month calculated to injure this country and correspondingly benefit Germany; that the Ambassador must recognize that the full opportunity and access of his country to our exchange situation, the free opportunity of Germany to carry on shipping with this country amounting to forty or fifty million dollars a year, and to buy fuel without tariffs being added, are naturally among the valuable advantages Germany has been enjoying while pursuing almost every possible method of injury to this country, and the Ambassador must realize that these conditions cannot last unless his Government is disposed to modify its policies.

I went on to say that, of course, the people of this country utterly abhor many of the practices of the German Government within its own territory and they cannot understand them from any practical viewpoint so far as the future welfare and progress of Germany are concerned. I added that our people generally seem to assume that the German people, having undergone disagreeable experiences during the ten or twelve years following the war, naturally, as opportunities were presented to release them from further restraints, moved entirely over to the opposite extreme, in connection with which they give full vent to their emotions and passions and tolerate acts and practices relating to racial minorities and religions which they would not ordinarily and normally tolerate; that, accordingly, the belief has been definite that these are temporary manifestations and abnormalities and that in due time the German people would swing back to a normal state of mind and normal relations with other governments and with their fellow man; that, in the light of this viewpoint, my Government has been earnestly hoping that the German Government would reach a stage where it would decide to support the program of peace and orderly progress and normal international relations, and the principles underlying the same, which this Government has been striving to keep alive and to aid in advancing. I said that there was only one alternative course—the course of force, militarism and territorial aggression, with all the hurtful and destroying practices and methods that accompany the same; that these inevitably are leading the world backward instead of forward; that this course will, sooner or later, bring on a more or less general war, and in this event that there will scarcely be left a trace of the people who brought it on or those against whom it was waged as well, especially as this relates to human welfare, human progress, and the civilization of this age and this century; that, with this certain situation ahead, I was wondering when nations thus far and at present pursuing the doctrine of force and giving no aid or encouragement to world order based on law, will decide that all of the real interests of their people in the long future call for an abandonment of this fatalistic course. I added finally that the President and I are almost consumed with a desire to have our country make a real contribution to the preservation and promotion of world order and all of the opportunities for human progress, the promotion of human welfare, and the preservation of peace, so far as the program we advocate is calculated to make these great attainments possible.

C[ordell] H[ull]

4. See pp. 483 ff.
5. See Foreign Relations, 1934, vol. ii, pp. 469 ff.
6. See Foreign Relations, 1937, vol. ii, pp. 348 ff.
7. See ibid., 1935, vol. ii, pp. 428 ff.