793.94/4142¾
Memorandum of Trans-Atlantic Telephone Conversation24
Mr. Wilson: Hello, Mr. Secretary. Sir John Simon attended a luncheon today with the Anglo-American Press Association from Paris meeting in Geneva and I want to read to you what he said to those men. He said, “he thought that the Chinese had very admirably brought and defended their case before the Council but he wondered if they were in as close touch with their central government as the British would be, for example, in similar circumstances.” It seems to me and Sir John Simon that the Covenant of the League was drawn up with the League as a separate entity capable of governing itself and at the same time guaranteeing the peaceful safety of their own citizens, as well as the lives of foreigners on their soil, as is the case with China. “It also would seem that the Covenant was drawn up without considering the ultimate necessity of the expansion of any certain nation; without the consideration that history has shown us that boundaries are never stable and bound to change from time to time. If all the present expansion taking place is quite along similar lines to those followed out in China by our own country one hundred years ago—[”]
Secretary: You mean their attitude in India.
Mr. Wilson: “We are inclined to regard China as a country or is it rather a geographical phrase. Is it wise for China to invoke the Assembly. As a lawyer I should point out that when one takes a case away from a lower court, before that court hands out a decision, it may or may not be a wise thing to do.” Did you hear that?
Secretary: Yes, I hear that.
Mr. Wilson: That is causing a good deal of commotion among the press here and I thought you might later hear stories based on [Page 302] that. This was given not for quotation but as background for the press.
Secretary: To what press did he make this statement?
Mr. Wilson: To the members of the Anglo-American Press Association who are now in Geneva.
Secretary: I am much obliged to you for letting me know.
Mr. Wilson: Yen has written a letter to the Council requesting that the Assembly be convoked as is his right under Article 15 of the Covenant. This afternoon a private meeting of the twelve was held. This morning on the strength of your No. 10 of February 11, 4:00 p.m., I informed Boncour of its contents. Later in the day, on the strength of your No. 9 [11] of February 11, 3:00 p.m., I informed Sir Eric Drummond and Sir John Simon of its contents. At the meeting of the twelve—I am afraid I have to read again some notes as to what took place—
Secretary: What happened at the Council of the private meeting this afternoon?
Mr. Wilson: For more than an hour discussions centered about all the various legal complications and whether such an Assembly should be called by the Council under Article 15 at the request of the Chinese, or should be called by the Council itself under Article 15 as suggested alternatively in the Chinese letter, or should be called by a majority under the regular rules of the Assembly. During this time practically no reference was made to substance of the dispute, to the negotiations at Shanghai, or to any information from the United States.
Finally, however, Boncour suggested a hasty draft of a resolution which the Council …25 in response to the Chinese initiative. This was to the effect that [“] in the absence of news as to the negotiations undertaken by the powers at Shanghai, and in view of the incompleteness of the Council’s own investigation, the Council felt unable at the moment to decide whether to call a special Assembly or definitely to renounce its right to invoke its moral authority in case of need. I have, of course, left entirely to China the question whether it would be opportune to do so.[”]
After several other interventions, Simon said that he thought perhaps the opening phrase regarding the negotiations of the powers might be undesirable. The reference at this moment to negotiations now going on would give more knowledge than he actually possessed. His Government had recently told the Council that negotiations were going on on the spot in collaboration with the United States. His Government was in close touch with the United States and had indeed [Page 303] a communication from them today. He was not, however, able to say precisely that negotiations were going on, though he knew that the United States were still interested. He did not want to assert more than he actually knew. His information for the last two days was not precise enough to justify the phraseology proposed.
Boncour urged that the Council could hardly fail to speak of the negotiations. If they were continuing they would justify the Council’s abstention; if they were terminated, a new situation would be created; the hostilities continued. The Council would have to consider what to do. After several other speakers, Boncour returned to this question with a somewhat altered phraseology, with the phrase, “While awaiting final results of the negotiations of the powers brought to the attention of the Council”.
Simon again quickly intervened to say that he could not feel justified in assenting to a resolution, putting in the very forefront that to his knowledge no negotiations in any strict sense were going on. He said, however, he did know, as he was in close touch with the American Government, that that Government continued its interest in the matter; that the American Minister had reached Shanghai today as had the British Minister and they were discussing the situation, but he felt unable to assert that negotiations in any sense were going on with the Japanese or Chinese because he did not have positive knowledge that they were.
Boncour at once replied that the Council had actually proportionated its work to these negotiations. It must have constantly in mind the intense public emotion now existing. He thereupon recalled the satisfaction which the Council felt on being informed on February 2nd of the démarche of the powers. He thought it would be quite impossible to allow all that to disappear from a resolution adopted in public. It would not be necessary to emphasize that these negotiations were active but they had been “the most excuse.” You see he made use of the words for the Council’s abstention, and they must now be kept in the picture.
Drummond then wondered if it were really necessary to bring all these matters into the reply to the Chinese. After all it would be quite enough to meet their letter to use some general phrase as the Council was proceeding actively with its work. Now the rest of this, Mr. Secretary, I need not read to you. That, I think, is the essential part as relating to the question of whether or not we are continuing our negotiations.
Secretary: Well, we are not engaged in any negotiations as I informed you yesterday.
Mr. Wilson: It is being said at the Council in spite of the fact that I gave them your message.
[Page 304]Secretary: I told you to tell them that we were doing nothing which would keep them from going on with whatever they wanted to do.
Mr. Wilson: And I did so, distinctly and definitely. I want to ask you a couple of questions, Mr. Secretary. The decision is put off until the private meeting Monday. May I advise here again that the negotiations, so far as we are concerned, are no longer continuing?
Secretary: Yes.
Mr. Wilson: May I advise Drummond by writing confirming my conversation with him today stating that the negotiations, so far as we are concerned, are no longer continuing and the field is free.
Secretary: Well, I hesitate to put anything in writing of that sort for the effect of the publicity outside. I don’t think that it is necessary.
Mr. Wilson: What do you recommend?
Secretary: I recommend that if the question is put to you, as you indicate it may be, you can say that there are no negotiations going on so far as we are concerned.
Mr. Wilson: I shall answer any question in that way then.
Secretary: Yes. I don’t think there is any reason to get excited over that; it is a problem of the League of Nations and they are trying to find a reason for taking a little more time perhaps over a difficult obstacle that lies in front of them. But our situation is as I have told you in that cable of yesterday. That put it about as plainly and as flatly as I could put it in language.
Mr. Wilson: As I explained it to them, nothing could be more clear.
Secretary: I have sent you a cable today26 to the effect that an urgent communication is coming to you now27 for delivery to Simon tomorrow morning before he leaves. That has nothing to do with any negotiations at Shanghai and has nothing to do with any answer to the question which you have now asked me and should not in any way interfere with the League’s performance in any way whatever. There has been so much communication back and forth that the air is full of dust and I don’t want any more dust to be excited. There is nothing that I know of in the air which will prevent the League from going on and doing whatever it wants to do and I should think that if you have any occasion to repeat that message to the members of the League tomorrow, you had better tell Simon at the same time what you have done so that there will be no cross wires between you and him. Tell him you had this talk with me. Tomorrow you can give him the instructions I gave you.
[Page 305]Mr. Wilson: Yes.
Secretary: The meeting of his Minister and my Minister in Shanghai today is not intended for the renewal on our part of any negotiations there at all.
Mr. Wilson: That is of interest.
Secretary: But merely, so far as I am concerned, to give me any information that my Minister may get from the British Minister or from anybody else. It is not intended to renew any good offices between the two contesting nations or to set on foot any new negotiations. Our Minister, Nelson Johnson, has gone down to Shanghai—I am very glad to have him on the spot—but he is not authorized to undertake any negotiations between China and Japan. Is that entirely clear?
Mr. Wilson: Yes, that is clear.
Secretary: Don’t let that fact start any new rumors.
Mr. Wilson: I won’t—I will be very definite about it.
Secretary: Be sure that you get that message to Simon. If by any chance you fail to get it to him tomorrow, for any reason whatever, I want it sent to him in London wherever you can reach him.
Mr. Wilson: Yes, I understand.
Secretary: Good-bye.
- Between Mr. Stimson in Washington and Mr. Wilson in Geneva, February 12, 1932, 3:55 p.m.↩
- Apparently poor telephone connection at this point.↩
- No. 9, February 12, noon; not printed.↩
- See telegram No. 11, February 12, 2 p.m., Foreign Relations, Japan, 1931–1941, vol. i, p. 80.↩