793.94/3725½
Memorandum of Trans-Atlantic Telephone Conversation92
Secretary: Hello, Mr. MacDonald. I am calling you informally on a very important matter. I am as much disturbed over the situation at Shanghai as you are. We seem to be in pretty good accord as to what we feel about it, your country and mine, but things seem to be going from bad to worse.
Mr. MacDonald: Yes, they are.
[Page 125]Secretary: The President today made a sensational suggestion that I want to put up to you. It is very unconventional but the time requires something striking. He wants you to consider whether the heads of our two countries could not appeal directly to the heads of the two Governments of Japan and China, mainly aimed at Japan to ask for a cessation of hostilities and of all hostile actions in order that negotiations could be at once established between them for the settlement of their outstanding controversies but with the attendance of neutral observers.
Mr. MacDonald: What is that?
Secretary: With the attendance of outside representatives as observers and assistants. In other words we have in mind the precedent that was used in 1922 when Mr. Balfour and Mr. Hughes acted as such observers in the Shantung matter.93
Mr. Mac Donald: Yes.
Secretary: China cannot negotiate alone as against Japan.
Mr. MacDonald: Yes.
Secretary: Now the President suggests a direct appeal to the Emperor by himself, and if the King would do that on your side, I suppose that in the case of both countries making such a direct appeal it would have to be the Chief of State.
Mr. MacDonald: I should imagine that.
Secretary: No one else can appeal to the Emperor.
Mr. MacDonald: Yes.
Secretary: The President has gone so far as to draft hurriedly a direct appeal which I have before me, but it is rather too long to read and it is only a rough suggestion. Now, if you think it would be worth while considering I can telegraph it to you tonight.
Mr. MacDonald: It is a very sudden proposal, you take me unprepared.
Secretary: Yes, I know. My apology—
Mr. MacDonald: No apology.
Secretary: Events are moving so fast that I am afraid there will be a declaration of war by China in which case she would throw herself completely into the hands of Japan.
Mr. MacDonald: Completely, yes.
Secretary: You see?
Mr. MacDonald: Yes.
Secretary: I am rather afraid of that; that is why I called you up. I tried to get Atherton so that he could go around and see you but he was away so I cut the formality and called you direct.
[Page 126]Mr. MacDonald: I appreciate it very much.
Secretary: I hope you and the Foreign Minister will excuse my liberty.
Mr. MacDonald: That is all right. I have been away since Wednesday94 and have just come in within the last hour. I would like to consider this. What about replying to you tomorrow morning.
Secretary: Of course you must take your own time.
Mr. MacDonald: Yes.
Secretary: Would it help you as a suggestion to have me telegraph the rough draft which the President wrote out for the case of Japan?
Mr. MacDonald: Yes, I would like very much to have it.
Secretary: Of course, in the case of China it would be very different and much more brief. This is in the nature of an appeal based upon the terrible condition in which China is being placed and the effect it will have on all the world.
Mr. MacDonald: Yes, I quite appreciate that. Now, I will be very glad if you will telegraph it to me tonight.
Secretary: Yes. In case for any reason the King would not do it, why of course your country can take whatever form she likes, but I should hardly advise the President to do it unless you could join, unless you did the same thing independently. I think for one of us to do it it would lose three-fourths of the force, but if we both did it—
Mr. MacDonald: I quite agree.
Secretary: We have been acting so closely together I think it would have a good deal of force. We would endeavor to put the appeal in such shape that it would be difficult for them to refuse.
Mr. MacDonald: Good.
Secretary: And I want you to be perfectly frank in your reaction in stating it to me.
Mr. MacDonald: I certainly will.
Secretary: Because it is a very extraordinary proposition.
Mr. MacDonald: It is an extraordinary proposal.
Secretary: It is a very extraordinary time.
Mr. MacDonald: Your idea would be that the messages should go separately but at the same time?
Secretary: Separately but at the same time. We should then want to go carefully into such arrangements as to privacy. We should have to decide upon later how soon it would be made public.
Mr. MacDonald: Now there is another question. Is it your idea that only we two should do it or should other States?
Secretary: If there is any one else that we could count upon to do [Page 127] it and at once we are not at all exclusive. We should be glad to have them, but in the case of one of our friends I am afraid of delays.
Mr. MacDonald: I know. If this thing is to be settled there should be no delay.
Secretary: There should be no delays at all.
Mr. MacDonald: Very well, if you send that statement over, I shall have it considered immediately.
Secretary: All right, I shall have it sent tonight.95
Mr. MacDonald: I can—
Secretary: What?
Mr. MacDonald: I think I can give you an answer before the middle of the day tomorrow.
Secretary: Can you send it by cable or would you prefer to talk to me? Whatever you like, but let me know beforehand.
Mr. MacDonald: We should telephone or cable.
Secretary: Unless you send your first message early, it would be quicker to cable.
Mr. MacDonald: It would be quicker to cable. Yes, it would be better than to telephone.
Secretary: And you will send it through Lindsay, I suppose. I am a little embarrassed by not being able to get Atherton, but we may be able to get him later.
Mr. MacDonald: Is Atherton away?
Secretary: I tried to get him this afternoon, but have been unable to locate him. I doubt if he is far away.
Mr. MacDonald: We will do it in the most expeditious way.
Secretary: I shall send it to you at once. Good-bye.
Mr. MacDonald: Hold on. If we decided to do it, we could communicate at once with the other States in a very secret way and find out what their view is, but in the meantime go ahead.
Secretary: I should think so.
Mr. MacDonald: Then go ahead.
Secretary: I should think so. If there is any delay during the communication it would be sure to leak out.
Mr. MacDonald: Certainly. What we could do would be, you and we send it simultaneously and inform the others and then let them act at once or let them come in later on.
Secretary: Yes, I see. I think that is the best way.
Mr. MacDonald: I wish to think about it. It was a surprise.
Secretary: Don’t hesitate to call me by telephone if it is more convenient to do that.
Mr. MacDonald: I shall do that.
[Page 128]Secretary: All right, sir. I sent you a letter in reply to your own by the pouch on the Majestic96 You will get it in a few days.
Mr. MacDonald: That will be all right. We have been worried about everything. There is just one thing on this Japanese situation we have received since I arrived here tonight, a message we have just heard as a matter of fact from our Chief Officer of the Navy in Shanghai of the Japanese using the International Settlement for offense and defense and we have asked our man in Tokyo to make a very strong representation against that.
Secretary: Well, I will be glad to join in that as soon as I get similar notice. I have already joined in your second appeal which you sent yesterday.
Mr. MacDonald: Yes.
Secretary: Mine went yesterday and it followed exactly the same lines as yours.
Mr. MacDonald: Was it the first?
Secretary: I am talking about the second.
Mr. MacDonald: I have just sent a third. I am just telling you that tonight that has come.
Secretary: I have heard rumors of that through the press. They have not been confirmed.
Mr. MacDonald: We have that confirmed from our Chief Naval Officer.
Secretary: Just as quickly as I can get a basis for it I shall do the same thing.
Mr. MacDonald: Very well, I am so glad to hear your voice.
Secretary: Good-bye.
Mr. MacDonald: Good night.
- Between Mr. Stimson in Washington and Mr. MacDonald in London, January 30, 1932, 6:10 p.m. Memorandum made in the Department of State for its own use; not an agreed record of the conversation.↩
- See Foreign Relations, 1922, vol. i, pp. 934 ff. Arthur J. Balfour and Charles B. Hughes were British and American representatives, respectively, at the Washington Conference, 1921–22.↩
- January 27.↩
- Infra.↩
- Letters apparently not in Department files.↩